HMSHoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, rico said: Pretty much this same team made the Sweet Sixteen last year. Izzo is a bad comp to Woody. I'm not comparing Izzo to Woodson. My comparison is the reaction of fans, and how things on here are viewed differently for different coaches. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMSHoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 10 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: It’s partially Izzo’s fault, just like it’s partially Woody’s fault. Difference is, I bet Izzo will still make the tournament. Why do I make that bet? Based on his past success of turning teams around and getting them to play well during the most important stretch of the season. I don’t know if Woody can do that, which is why I still think he needs another year, but also is exactly why Izzo should rightfully get more leeway than Woody. Hence, the bad comparison. Who are you betting on to make the tournament? IU? MSU? Neither? Or Both? At this point I don't see either making the tournament. If you asked me at the beginning of the season though I would have MSU would 100% make the tournament because they were returning all their key players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMSHoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Michigan State is in a significantly better spot to make the tournament than we are. I would hope that our AD would laugh at any comparison of Woody to Izzo in terms of a justification for Woody. Woody getting another year is pretty simple IMO. He needs to show he is willing to adjust both in terms of his scheme and his roster construction. He can’t fix the roster now so you’ll have to give him the offseason for that, but he can tweak his scheme in meaningful ways. If he is unwilling to adjust he should go. He absolutely doesn’t have the track record at any level to say he deserves more time if he isn’t willing to adapt. I'm not comparing them in terms of what they have accomplished in their coaching career. What I am pointing out is Izzo has essentially the same team last year that went to the S16 and so far everybody has had some sort of reasoning why it's ok for that to happen. On the flip side Woody has a relatively new team with alot of new pieces and he has no grace from the fans for down year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 1 minute ago, HMSHoosier said: I'm not comparing them in terms of what they have accomplished in their coaching career. What I am pointing out is Izzo has essentially the same team last year that went to the S16 and so far everybody has had some sort of reasoning why it's ok for that to happen. On the flip side Woody has a relatively new team with alot of new pieces and he has no grace from the fans for down year. I’m not justifying anything about this Michigan State team, but they are still in position to get a good enough seed to make a run to the second weekend. We are in position where we may miss the NIT. The comparison isn’t bad just because of the history of the two coaches, it’s bad because of the position the two teams are in right now is drastically different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMSHoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I’m not justifying anything about this Michigan State team, but they are still in position to get a good enough seed to make a run to the second weekend. We are in position where we may miss the NIT. The comparison isn’t bad just because of the history of the two coaches, it’s bad because of the position the two teams are in right now is drastically different. If you think they are in a better position because of their remaining schedule I would agree since they play the bottom half of the league twice. If we lose today we would have the same record. The only thing they have is a win against Baylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 9 minutes ago, HMSHoosier said: If you think they are in a better position because of their remaining schedule I would agree since they play the bottom half of the league twice. If we lose today we would have the same record. The only thing they have is a win against Baylor. Michigan State has 2 Quad 1 wins, we have 0. They are better than us in the NET, KenPom, BPI, Tovark and any other metric you want, by a lot. They have a much better chance to finish strong with their remaining schedule. Bracket Matrix has them as 9 seed showing up in 78/80 brackets, we don’t show up in a single bracket. I know the point of using Michigan State having a down year as an example was offered as a defense of Woody, but I actually think it’s an indictment if we are comparing. Our down year, if things don’t change, is trending towards one of the worst seasons in most of this boards lifetime. Michigan State in a down year is trending toward a mid-level seed in the tournament. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, HMSHoosier said: I know I'm going to get "beat up" for my thought as I'm not in the majority, and that's fine. I do have experience of being apart of a team for a better part of 25 years and still going. It's not basketball but it's still essentially the same as there are 25 people involved. The longer you can keep the team together the stronger you will get and you can stay at the top of the sport. The more that change happens the more uncertainty you will have every year. As far as the development argument goes If I don't work on my craft than I will never get better or help the team get better. I can't wait around for the leader to force me to get better or we will all suffer. Just my 2 cents i'm not sure anyone can really argue with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, tdhoosier said: For the record, I think Woody needs at least another year. A few vocal minority on this board want him fired now. All said, the amount of leeway the 2 coaches should get based on prior success isn’t even close to an apt comparison. Last year was considered a down year for Izzo and he still made the Sweet 16, losing in over-time. playing semantics a little here- needs at least another year? deserves another year? i don't know. personally i don't think he is the guy to get us where we want to be as a program, so what good is one more year going to do anyone? that's just my opinion though. why do you think he needs at least another year? like he'll show us that he is the guy next year? or he just doesn't deserve to be fired yet? just curious. i think he'll definitely be back next year and we'll be even worse than this year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 The acceptance of mediocrity from a once proud , not to mention feared blue blood program is astonishing and the exact reason the results will remain the same. The very reason IU was a feared blue blood was because RMK would not accept a weak culture. He demanded excellence and would run you in the ground for only beating a team by 15 when he knows you could have beat them by 25. If you arrived and didn’t fit the bill, he sent you packing and didn’t shed a tear. His demeanor radiated off of his players on the floor. Scrappy, intelligent, hard nosed fighters. Woodson is not the coach folks want him to be. At his age, he’s not gonna get any better. He is what he is. Give him time to recruit a superstar and give him credit all you want to. The same superstar would make the mop lady look like a good coach. Good coaches make good players. That’s why Bob Knight was so good. There was once a time everyone wanted to be like IU. Now we have fallen so far for so long that folks are ok with just being better than the bottom half and can’t understand why it’s not ok to get stomped by Rutgers. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 45 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said: playing semantics a little here- needs at least another year? deserves another year? i don't know. personally i don't think he is the guy to get us where we want to be as a program, so what good is one more year going to do anyone? that's just my opinion though. why do you think he needs at least another year? like he'll show us that he is the guy next year? or he just doesn't deserve to be fired yet? just curious. i think he'll definitely be back next year and we'll be even worse than this year. Two reasons: 1. Woody has turned it around in year 1 (in February) and year 2 (mid January). I’m not touting those years as huge successes, but they were an improvement over CAM. I think he greatly mis-judged our roster and took gambles that didn’t pay off. IMO, that is on the staff. I personally want to see if he can rewrite the ship and learn from the mistakes he made. He has proven that he can get high level recruits….he just needs to get the right ones. He has proven that he can draw up great plays and make halftime adjustments…he just needs to get guys who can execute. Can he get those guys and build a balanced roster? I want to see him try because…… 2. I don’t want to fall back into the never-ending whirlpool that is our coaching search. It’s becoming a death by a thousand paper cuts. And I’m not sure the right guy (with a mutual interest in us) is currently out there. If we strike out on a hire again, our program will be weakened even more. So why not take another year gamble on Woody? The way I see it is: we have a lot more to gain than lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUJoe Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, rico said: Izzo made the FF in 2019. What does that get him this year? Does he get an extra win or 2 in the standings? I guess I just don’t get what a FF 5 years ago means if I am evaluating what kind of success a coach is going to have now and in the foreseeable future. The game and the recruiting landscape has changed a lot in the past 5 years and, quite frankly, Izzo has had more scandals than successes in his program since 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 Don’t know how anyone can compare a coach/program that has 29 years of building v a guy in his 3rd year who still is coaching some of his predecessor’s players. I get it that CMW has to change some things but to think 3 years is a fair amount of time to evaluate him doesn’t make sense imo. I agree wholeheartedly that next year needs to see real progress. I also agree wholeheartedly that prematurely firing him after this season will set us back. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 22 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: Woody has turned it around in year 1 (in February) and year 2 (mid January I guess? Our low NET Year 1 was 56 and we finished at 44, the high was 29. Year 2 had a low of 37 and we finished 31, it was as high as 8 at one point. We got absolutely embarrassed to end both seasons. You can say we weren’t at our low point in either season at the end, I’m not sure you can really say we were peaking and playing our best in either season though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 18 minutes ago, IUJoe said: What does that get him this year? Does he get an extra win or 2 in the standings? I guess I just don’t get what a FF 5 years ago means if I am evaluating what kind of success a coach is going to have now and in the foreseeable future. The game and the recruiting landscape has changed a lot in the past 5 years and, quite frankly, Izzo has had more scandals than successes in his program since 2019. Really? Come on. It’s not like it’s only his marker of success. It’s not like Crean going to the final 4 in one year because he had Dwayne Wade. Izzo has been to EIGHT final fours in his career. Scandals aside, and I really don’t like that I’m being put into a position to tout Izzo’s accomplishments, but the dude can coach. He’s not going to get fired. He’s done when he says he’s done. MSU will make the tournament. They have the guys. They will turn it around. It happens every freaking year. You think any opposing coach is going to want to face that team in the tournament? I’m glad you’re not my boss. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I guess? Our low NET Year 1 was 56 and we finished at 44, the high was 29. Year 2 had a low of 37 and we finished 31, it was as high as 8 at one point. We got absolutely embarrassed to end both seasons. You can say we weren’t at our low point in either season at the end, I’m not sure you can really say we were peaking and playing our best in either season though. I’m not arguing with you because you’re not wrong. Still want to see another year though. CAM was an outsider, we were able to have a clean break. Firing Woody this year will be a messy divorce. I think it will ultimately be a set back and I’m not ready to blow everything up. JMHO. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 45 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: I’m not arguing with you because you’re not wrong. Still want to see another year though. CAM was an outsider, we were able to have a clean break. Firing Woody this year will be a messy divorce. I think it will ultimately be a set back and I’m not ready to blow everything up. JMHO. I totally get that, and even though I started this thread I’d like to see him make enough adjustments to get another year. Then nail the portal, continue evolving his schemes and have a good year next year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, tdhoosier said: Two reasons: 1. Woody has turned it around in year 1 (in February) and year 2 (mid January). I’m not touting those years as huge successes, but they were an improvement over CAM. I think he greatly mis-judged our roster and took gambles that didn’t pay off. IMO, that is on the staff. I personally want to see if he can rewrite the ship and learn from the mistakes he made. He has proven that he can get high level recruits….he just needs to get the right ones. He has proven that he can draw up great plays and make halftime adjustments…he just needs to get guys who can execute. Can he get those guys and build a balanced roster? I want to see him try because…… 2. I don’t want to fall back into the never-ending whirlpool that is our coaching search. It’s becoming a death by a thousand paper cuts. And I’m not sure the right guy (with a mutual interest in us) is currently out there. If we strike out on a hire again, our program will be weakened even more. So why not take another year gamble on Woody? The way I see it is: we have a lot more to gain than lose. so... i agree that it is tricky with the coaching carousel problem. don't want to mess up again, so get Pearl or Beard. i personally don't give him any more credit than being a little better than CAM though. if we're okay with that, then i agree. i think it is safe to say he isn't the guy to get us over the HUMP though. if we were happy about being pretty good, we should have stuck with Crean. as of now, Woodson is a step down from that. i am unwilling to say Woodson has proven ANYTHING. drawing up great plays and making halftime adjustments? okay. just don't see him leading us to where we want to be, so i actually see it as a risk to just keep him and remain in purgatory when it seems clear he isn't the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, Inequality said: The acceptance of mediocrity from a once proud , not to mention feared blue blood program is astonishing and the exact reason the results will remain the same. The very reason IU was a feared blue blood was because RMK would not accept a weak culture. He demanded excellence and would run you in the ground for only beating a team by 15 when he knows you could have beat them by 25. If you arrived and didn’t fit the bill, he sent you packing and didn’t shed a tear. His demeanor radiated off of his players on the floor. Scrappy, intelligent, hard nosed fighters. Woodson is not the coach folks want him to be. At his age, he’s not gonna get any better. He is what he is. Give him time to recruit a superstar and give him credit all you want to. The same superstar would make the mop lady look like a good coach. Good coaches make good players. That’s why Bob Knight was so good. There was once a time everyone wanted to be like IU. Now we have fallen so far for so long that folks are ok with just being better than the bottom half and can’t understand why it’s not ok to get stomped by Rutgers. Being a fan isn't supposed to be a walk in the park. It comes with highs and it comes with lows. I'm a Reds fan. With the Lions wins in the NFL postseason this year, the Reds now have the longest streak of not winning a playoff series among all the major sports. But, guess what? Despite that, I still have '75, '76, and '90 to celebrate in my lifetime. So, is it better to be a Reds fan or a Tampa Bay Rays fan? Being a Dodgers fan, Yankees fan, etc. is easy. Now translate that to college basketball. Being an IU fan is not easy right now. But, I've got '76, '81, and '87 in my memory bank. Do UConn fans have it better? Yeah, maybe they do. They are #1 and have multiple Championships since we had our last. But, how about our opponent today, Illinois. Ooh, they're Top 10 in the polls. Would any reasonable IU fan trade a banner for that designation? I'm fine with fans being discontented with how things are. I get it. I sure as heck wish it was better as well. But, at some point we all have to take a step back and think 'You know, it could be worse'. I could be an Illinois fan, an Iowa State fan, a soon to be mid-major Washington State fan, a Boston College fan, or even a Louisville fan. Thankfully, I'm none of those. It may not be this year, next year, or even within the next 5 years, but at some point, IU will be among the best teams in the country again. there is too much foundation in Hoosier nation for that not to happen. And, when it happens, I'm going to look on and rejoice with all Hoosier fans, those that held strong through the tough times, new fans celebrating real success for the first time, and even those that gave up on the team, but want to jump back on the bandwagon. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I totally get that, and even though I started this thread I’d like to see him make enough adjustments to get another year. Then nail the portal, continue evolving his schemes and have a good year next year. That’s is best case scenario for the IU program. That’s my focus. I could care less if Homer Simpson is our coach as long as he brings us back to relevance. Im more concerned with getting back to relevance and establishing a consistent winning culture than hurting a coaches feelings. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 1 minute ago, Inequality said: That’s is best case scenario for the IU program. That’s my focus. I could care less if Homer Simpson is our coach as long as he brings us back to relevance. Im more concerned with getting back to relevance and establishing a consistent winning culture than hurting a coaches feelings. man, i never realized how much i agreed with your posts until the last few days. i have pretty much agreed with everything you have posted for quite a while now. not sure that's a good thing for you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said: so... i agree that it is tricky with the coaching carousel problem. don't want to mess up again, so get Pearl or Beard. i personally don't give him any more credit than being a little better than CAM though. if we're okay with that, then i agree. i think it is safe to say he isn't the guy to get us over the HUMP though. if we were happy about being pretty good, we should have stuck with Crean. as of now, Woodson is a step down from that. i am unwilling to say Woodson has proven ANYTHING. drawing up great plays and making halftime adjustments? okay. just don't see him leading us to where we want to be, so i actually see it as a risk to just keep him and remain in purgatory when it seems clear he isn't the answer. If Dolson has a coach that is a sure bet in his back pocket then maybe I’m board. But I doubt this would be the case. If he fires Woody and conducts a coaching search, it’ll be over before it starts. We’ve been down this road before and not much has changed to make our job more attractive. If anything, it’s become more demanding. Add on top of that we just fired a coach - one of our own - after only 3 years that got us to the tournament twice. It doesn’t exactly scream job security. Is a coach want to up root his family and leave a good thing for this meat grinder? Also, this administration is not hiring Beard or Pearl. I keep hearing these names, but I just don’t think it’s realistic. The only thing they are at this point are fun names to say. Both have too much baggage and we’ve proven not to hire coaches with baggage. Plus, I’ve heard rumblings that Beard said no to us before his scandal (rumor). I’ve also heard that Pearl is and has been very fond of the IU job, but our admin is not interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsidehoosier Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 Woodys team accomplished something that hasn’t happened in 13 years…congrats Woody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 18 minutes ago, southsidehoosier said: Woodys team accomplished something that hasn’t happened in 13 years…congrats Woody Forget not making any, its absurd that we only took 8, basically playing small ball. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 55 minutes ago, BGleas said: Forget not making any, its absurd that we only took 8, basically playing small ball. It just shows that the line about him playing to his personnel is completely false. He just has a system that prioritizes the wrong shots and he hasn’t adjusted it at all. Imagine the recruiting pitch… Woody: “I need you so we can play 4 out on offense, that’ll get us over the himp” Recruit: “I saw that game against Illinois that you played four out and still only took 8 threes. I don’t believe you’re going to change.” It’s so important for recruiting to make adjustments the rest of the season or I don’t see how he can even sell a vision to recruits. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 4 hours ago, 5fouls said: Being a fan isn't supposed to be a walk in the park. It comes with highs and it comes with lows. I'm a Reds fan. With the Lions wins in the NFL postseason this year, the Reds now have the longest streak of not winning a playoff series among all the major sports. But, guess what? Despite that, I still have '75, '76, and '90 to celebrate in my lifetime. So, is it better to be a Reds fan or a Tampa Bay Rays fan? Being a Dodgers fan, Yankees fan, etc. is easy. Now translate that to college basketball. Being an IU fan is not easy right now. But, I've got '76, '81, and '87 in my memory bank. Do UConn fans have it better? Yeah, maybe they do. They are #1 and have multiple Championships since we had our last. But, how about our opponent today, Illinois. Ooh, they're Top 10 in the polls. Would any reasonable IU fan trade a banner for that designation? I'm fine with fans being discontented with how things are. I get it. I sure as heck wish it was better as well. But, at some point we all have to take a step back and think 'You know, it could be worse'. I could be an Illinois fan, an Iowa State fan, a soon to be mid-major Washington State fan, a Boston College fan, or even a Louisville fan. Thankfully, I'm none of those. It may not be this year, next year, or even within the next 5 years, but at some point, IU will be among the best teams in the country again. there is too much foundation in Hoosier nation for that not to happen. And, when it happens, I'm going to look on and rejoice with all Hoosier fans, those that held strong through the tough times, new fans celebrating real success for the first time, and even those that gave up on the team, but want to jump back on the bandwagon. I am a Reds fan as well. So in October of 1990 I just turned 20. By that time I was alive for 3 IU championships, 3 Reds World Series. The Pacers had won a couple of ABA championships but don't remember them. Since then in 33 years I had one of my teams win a championship. I guess I could count the Super Bowls the Cowboys won in the 70's because I was a fan of them before the Colts got here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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