2023 NFL Discussion

[dgambill]

5 hours ago, IU Scott said:

If he wanted 4/48 the Colts probably would have already extended him. From what I have gathered he wants about 16 mil a year

I doubt it. I don’t think the Colts want to do anything long term.

[Boiler Sam]

8 hours ago, dgambill said:

I doubt it. I don’t think the Colts want to do anything long term.

Depends on how you structure it. Leonard’s contract has an easy out after this season, for example. They could do a 4 for 48 that’s really a 2 for 25.

[btownqb]

I have ZERO interest in signing JT long term at this point in time.  

Maybe he can prove, this season, why he deserves a contract... I've not seen it. 

[Boiler Sam]

10 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I have ZERO interest in signing JT long term at this point in time.  

Maybe he can prove, this season, why he deserves a contract... I've not seen it. 

I’d do a 2 for 25 if for no other reason than to help AR and to not have to draft another RB next year, so they can use that pick elsewhere.
 

But he wouldn’t take that deal anyway so it’s a moot point…

[dgambill]

4 hours ago, Boiler Sam said:

I’d do a 2 for 25 if for no other reason than to help AR and to not have to draft another RB next year, so they can use that pick elsewhere.
 

But he wouldn’t take that deal anyway so it’s a moot point…

I would do something like that. He is the best offensive player on our team. Guarantee him next year and give him a bump for this year. Compromise. I’m sure it won’t happen because of all the drama has upset both sides but it just shouldn’t have gotten to this point. We have the cap space…we aren’t using it. Reward a player that has exceeded his contract while not committing deep long term contract. But yeah it won’t happen…we need his explosiveness. But who knows…maybe we want to be bad this year on purpose…sure seems we have committed to that with how little we addressed our OL, let our best corner go, and alienated our best offensive weapon.

[13th&Jackson]

4 hours ago, dgambill said:

I would do something like that. He is the best offensive player on our team. Guarantee him next year and give him a bump for this year. Compromise. I’m sure it won’t happen because of all the drama has upset both sides but it just shouldn’t have gotten to this point. We have the cap space…we aren’t using it. Reward a player that has exceeded his contract while not committing deep long term contract. But yeah it won’t happen…we need his explosiveness. But who knows…maybe we want to be bad this year on purpose…sure seems we have committed to that with how little we addressed our OL, let our best corner go, and alienated our best offensive weapon.

Home opener is Kroger hat night

[Seeking6]

Not a shock and probably something set in motion long ago. Dolphins are involved for JT....and his agent (Malki Kawa) hometown you ask? Miami. 

 

[Boiler Sam]

2 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Not a shock and probably something set in motion long ago. Dolphins are involved for JT....and his agent (Malki Kawa) hometown you ask? Miami. 

 

They don’t have a 3 or 4 in 2024. Would they give up a 2? 

[btownqb]

10 hours ago, Boiler Sam said:

They don’t have a 3 or 4 in 2024. Would they give up a 2? 

It's going to take north of a 2.

Edited August 24, 2023 by btownqb

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

It's going to take north of a 2.

Agreed - and that among other reasons is why JT isn't getting traded. 

He wants to frame it (and unfortunately the national media has bought into this, the local has not) that the Colts aren't willing to pay him. The reality is the Colts are willing to pay him if he shows he is healthy and can perform in this offense that he's never played in. It is so completely reasonable to want to see that before paying him market value; the problem is JT wants more than market value, and he wants it now. 

[KoB2011]

I sell enterprise software - I cannot imagine going to my boss and demanding they pay me more because I was the top rep in 2021, then had a poor 2022 and missed a good chunk of time and still don't look fully back and getting any traction with that.

The response would be to go perform and then I'd get more, same as what the Colts are saying to JT. 

[ledies22]

8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I sell enterprise software - I cannot imagine going to my boss and demanding they pay me more because I was the top rep in 2021, then had a poor 2022 and missed a good chunk of time and still don't look fully back and getting any traction with that.

The response would be to go perform and then I'd get more, same as what the Colts are saying to JT. 

just playing devils advocate here, because I dont feel like working today:

So after JT's monstrous year in '21 he should have held out last year demanding more money instead?

side note: I am on the side of the Colts (not a colts fan) on this one. Plenty of players go through "prove it" years. But also the RB position in the NFL is not as valuable anymore. 

[btownqb]

12 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I sell enterprise software - I cannot imagine going to my boss and demanding they pay me more because I was the top rep in 2021, then had a poor 2022 and missed a good chunk of time and still don't look fully back and getting any traction with that.

The response would be to go perform and then I'd get more, same as what the Colts are saying to JT. 

What about if you brought representation with you that was immature, unprofessional, and basically didnt get along with your management? 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, ledies22 said:

just playing devils advocate here, because I dont feel like working today:

So after JT's monstrous year in '21 he should have held out last year demanding more money instead?

side note: I am on the side of the Colts (not a colts fan) on this one. Plenty of players go through "prove it" years. But also the RB position in the NFL is not as valuable anymore. 

IMO-- the next CBA needs to trend that way, with some flexibility if a RB has monstrous 1st, 2nd years 🤷‍♂️.. 

But no, he should not have sat out. He should have stayed healthy. 

[KoB2011]

29 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

just playing devils advocate here, because I dont feel like working today:

So after JT's monstrous year in '21 he should have held out last year demanding more money instead?

side note: I am on the side of the Colts (not a colts fan) on this one. Plenty of players go through "prove it" years. But also the RB position in the NFL is not as valuable anymore. 

I'd still say no, he had two years left on his deal. Part of proving worth in the NFL is proving longevity, which he kinda has failed to do for the back half of his four year deal with the Colts.

I agree with your side note: RB position is not that valuable and it's pretty common to have to 'prove' your football worth. 

[KoB2011]

30 minutes ago, btownqb said:

What about if you brought representation with you that was immature, unprofessional, and basically didnt get along with your management? 

I'm sorry man, you cannot be my agent 

[Boiler Sam]

4 hours ago, btownqb said:

It's going to take north of a 2.

Well then he’s not getting traded. 

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I sell enterprise software - I cannot imagine going to my boss and demanding they pay me more because I was the top rep in 2021, then had a poor 2022 and missed a good chunk of time and still don't look fully back and getting any traction with that.

The response would be to go perform and then I'd get more, same as what the Colts are saying to JT. 

I mean I agree…but pro sports and athletes are just a bad comparison when it comes to the real world…it just doesn’t equate in any way shape or form. From what they make, what they do for a living, their worth to an organization, etc. I think anytime we try to compare any of our situations to theirs it is just a bad comp. It’s like that world is a different parrellel universe…and the laws of physics, money, etc just doesn’t apply. 

[dgambill]

20 minutes ago, Boiler Sam said:

Well then he’s not getting traded. 

Yep. Colts are confusing…if he isn’t worth extending or paying then why do they think he is worth a first rd pick. If you have a player valuable enough someone would have to give you a first for them…why wouldn’t you want to lock them up? Unless you are trying to keep them on the cheap. Especially if a guy is recognized and loved by everyone in the locker room and seen as a leader on that side of the ball.
 

So if you don’t value him enough to extend him etc then why should a team give you a 1 for him? If you don’t see him as a cornerstone piece then why ask for a kings ransome. If you think rbs are all replaceable then take the 2 you got him for and move on. I don’t know what is being offered but it won’t be a 1…but if they get multiple day 2 picks I think he is gone.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

I mean I agree…but pro sports and athletes are just a bad comparison when it comes to the real world…it just doesn’t equate in any way shape or form. From what they make, what they do for a living, their worth to an organization, etc. I think anytime we try to compare any of our situations to theirs it is just a bad comp. It’s like that world is a different parrellel universe…and the laws of physics, money, etc just doesn’t apply. 

Okay if it's a bad comp, then why is it playing out for JT exactly like I described it would for me?

Are athletes very different as a class of labor than the average worker? Sure, but there are some things that still apply from an economics standpoint. 

[KoB2011]

47 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yep. Colts are confusing…if he isn’t worth extending or paying then why do they think he is worth a first rd pick. If you have a player valuable enough someone would have to give you a first for them…why wouldn’t you want to lock them up? Unless you are trying to keep them on the cheap. Especially if a guy is recognized and loved by everyone in the locker room and seen as a leader on that side of the ball.
 

So if you don’t value him enough to extend him etc then why should a team give you a 1 for him? If you don’t see him as a cornerstone piece then why ask for a kings ransome. If you think rbs are all replaceable then take the 2 you got him for and move on. I don’t know what is being offered but it won’t be a 1…but if they get multiple day 2 picks I think he is gone.

Honestly man.... it's not that complicated and you're making it complicated.

• If someone extends him for what he wants and has a long-term contract, then he has a lot of value.
• If no one is willing to give him that, his value to that organization in a trade is also going to be lower.
• The Colts have no reason to trade a cheap, talented asset that they could franchise tag for a late round draft pick.

His value only jumps to a high draft pick if someone is willing to extend him. If he isn't getting a high draft pick the Colts have no incentive to trade him. 

[dgambill]

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

Okay if it's a bad comp, then why is it playing out for JT exactly like I described it would for me?

Are athletes very different as a class of labor than the average worker? Sure, but there are some things that still apply from an economics standpoint. 

It’s a bad comp…just because it did or is playing out that way doesn’t mean it’s the same. You can get the same result with lots of things in life but that doesn’t mean what determines the outcome and the variables are the same. How many other players have come off a bad year and still got a raise in pro sports? I’m not saying you aren’t correct in your accessment of what should happen or what happens in the “real world” but comparing our lives and work to such an Uber elite athlete for the most part is not a good comparison. I don’t think the main reason JT isn’t getting what he wanted is because he is coming off a down year and he got hurt…there is a lot more variables in effect (a lot having to do with the owner and a lot with the position he plays and current market conditions for that position). I just think it’s a lot more complicated than our typical life examples. 

[KoB2011]

7 minutes ago, dgambill said:

It’s a bad comp…just because it did or is playing out that way doesn’t mean it’s the same. You can get the same result with lots of things in life but that doesn’t mean what determines the outcome and the variables are the same. How many other players have come off a bad year and still got a raise in pro sports? I’m not saying you aren’t correct in your accessment of what should happen or what happens in the “real world” but comparing our lives and work to such an Uber elite athlete for the most part is not a good comparison. I don’t think the main reason JT isn’t getting what he wanted is because he is coming off a down year and he got hurt…there is a lot more variables in effect (a lot having to do with the owner and a lot with the position he plays and current market conditions for that position). I just think it’s a lot more complicated than our typical life examples. 

Why is it a bad comp? Economic principles are economic principles, and unless you can demonstrate why they don't hold water in a circumstance I'm going to move forward assuming they do. You'r making the claim it doesn't apply, you prove it. 

JT coming off of a down year and being hurt is a huge part of not getting an extension. When is the last time a running back got a big contract in that situation? 

[dgambill]

11 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Honestly man.... it's not that complicated and you're making it complicated.

• If someone extends him for what he wants and has a long-term contract, then he has a lot of value.
• If no one is willing to give him that, his value to that organization in a trade is also going to be lower.
• The Colts have no reason to trade a cheap, talented asset that they could franchise tag for a late round draft pick.

His value only jumps to a high draft pick if someone is willing to extend him. If he isn't getting a high draft pick the Colts have no incentive to trade him. 

If the Colts think he is worth a high pick…why don’t they extend him? You just said because they are being cheap.
 

They do have an incentive to do it. To keep a player happy, on the field, contributing. No question we are a better team with JT than not…so now we have made our team worse by alienating our star player. Sure they have leverage but how you use it is important.
 

Because he has outperformed his contract and will likely continue to do so and he is a player that is a building block to having a successful season. Build goodwill with him and show your other players that if you perform we will explore every way we can to show you we value you and even if it’s financially beneficial to us not to pay you more, we will do so when one of our own has earned it. They’ve done it with other players…heck quite regularly extended them before the last year of their contract…lots of teams do. 
 

Imo the situation hasn’t been handled very well. Whether he got an extension or not we have had poor communication. Made some foot in mouth comments and generally escalated the situation instead of looked at ways to bring down the heat and come to a working agreement that would meet both sides goals and get Taylor on the field for us. I’m not taking sides I just think this all has been handled poorly.

[dgambill]

18 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Why is it a bad comp? Economic principles are economic principles, and unless you can demonstrate why they don't hold water in a circumstance I'm going to move forward assuming they do. You'r making the claim it doesn't apply, you prove it. 

JT coming off of a down year and being hurt is a huge part of not getting an extension. When is the last time a running back got a big contract in that situation? 

Lots of athletes have signed long term deals with raises after having down/bad/injury seasons. Justin Herbert just did after being hurt most of last year and having his worst season so far. Watson got a huge contract after missing a whole season with lawsuits galore. Happens in NBA, MLB, etc. my point however is not that economic principals don’t apply…just they aren’t the same set of principles as what we experience in real life. In general these people are treated much much differently than us avg joes. We say something on social media we get fired…they just have to give an apology. They beat a woman they get some counseling and maybe a suspension. We lose our jobs and go to jail….I just think for the most part it’s a very different reality. I don’t want to derail the thread and my posts are already too long for most to read. If you disagree…that’s fine. You win the arguement. I concede.