NBA Thread

[Hoosierhoopster]

Celebrate! 

[Zlinedavid]

One thing to remember: Toronto isn't one of the fabricated "super teams". GS has 4, maybe 5 guys that are legitimate stars. Toronto has Kawhi, Lowry, who has almost become a star in his own right, and a bunch of guys who are at the "pretty good" level (Gasol, Ibaka, FVV, Green, Siakem, etc). There's always the debate of "Is it KD or Curry?" Not in TO. This is Kawhi's team, period.

A reminder of just how damn good Kawhi is, and kind of refreshing to not have a team with a "Big 3/4/5/whatever" on the verge of a title.

[Hoosierhoopster]

I think at this point it is more than fair to dub Kawhi the best player in the game.

A two-way player who developed as a defensive stopper first, and is now scoring in the playoffs at a truly elite level while he leads a Toronto team, that would have long bombed out without him, to what sure looks like a title and over GS, after a 2-0 run on their floor. 

 

[rico]

Can the Warriors pull off a miracle?

[Seeking6]

As a Pacers fan we're forced to remember that Kawhi Leonard was traded by Larry Bird  to San Antonio for George Hill. Thanks Larry!!

 Kudos to Toronto. Maybe this might force or motivate the Pacers one of these decades to actually unhinge the Simon purse strings and go get a superstar. That whole small market stuff may have been true years/decades ago but hasn't been in awhile. In ALL sports.

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

As a Pacers fan we're forced to remember that Kawhi Leonard was traded by Larry Bird  to San Antonio for George Hill. Thanks Larry!!

 Kudos to Toronto. Maybe this might force or motivate the Pacers one of these decades to actually unhinge the Simon purse strings and go get a superstar. That whole small market stuff may have been true years/decades ago but hasn't been in awhile. In ALL sports.

I would be curious to see what operational costs and actual owner profits are.  I get that these sports teams bring in millions of dollars downtown and therefore warrant the tax breaks and in many cases, cash incentives to come or stay.   Kudos to the local t alking heads for drumming up this same conversation.   It's time for the billionaires to bring in the stars to chase a championship.   

I'm sure you know this but the trade was determined for the rights to the pick.  Then the spurs told the pacers who they wanted at that pick.  Most people at the time liked the trade and it did bring aome value to the pacers for a few years.  Sure hindsight is always 20/20.  Going forward if the spurs or patriots ask you to trade, you just decline.  

[Seeking6]

2 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I would be curious to see what operational costs and actual owner profits are.  I get that these sports teams bring in millions of dollars downtown and therefore warrant the tax breaks and in many cases, cash incentives to come or stay.   Kudos to the local t alking heads for drumming up this same conversation.   It's time for the billionaires to bring in the stars to chase a championship.   

I'm sure you know this but the trade was determined for the rights to the pick.  Then the spurs told the pacers who they wanted at that pick.  Most people at the time liked the trade and it did bring aome value to the pacers for a few years.  Sure hindsight is always 20/20.  Going forward if the spurs or patriots ask you to trade, you just decline.  

Last sentence all day long. 

Regarding the money part. No clue on ins and outs. I know that if an owner wants to spend he or she can. Some owners will while others are content with the idea you always have to build via the draft. Obviously the draft is the foundation but peppering it with a free agent superstar can happen. I equate it to college hoops. Build a program with solid 4 star guys and add an elite level 5 star to the mix. Same theory in NBA will work and should happen. 

Simon's have been very good to the city and I think in turn we've been good to them. That's the thing (even with some of his faults) you can't harp on Irsay about. He'll spend whatever is necessary to field a title team/organization. 

[NotIThatLives]

16 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

That's the thing (even with some of his faults) you can't harp on Irsay about. He'll spend whatever is necessary to field a title team/organization. 

That has certainly become the narrative but it actually doesn't hold water, at least since 2009.  I couldn't find info from 2008 so I quit going back.  From 09- now, only one year in that span did the Colts go over the cap.  2013 3.5 mil.  

[Seeking6]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

That has certainly become the narrative but it actually doesn't hold water, at least since 2009.  I couldn't find info from 2008 so I quit going back.  From 09- now, only one year in that span did the Colts go over the cap.  2013 3.5 mil.  

I think you might have misunderstood my post. In the NFL the cap is a hard cap. Penalties are $5m plus potentially losing picks, draft choices,etc....no NFL owner in their right mind would go over.

When I said Irsay will spend....between facilities, infrastructure, coaches, gm's,etc.....isn't even close what the Colts have and will spend compared to what Simon's have shown. At least that's my opinion. 

[dgambill]

7 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I think at this point it is more than fair to dub Kawhi the best player in the game.

A two-way player who developed as a defensive stopper first, and is now scoring in the playoffs at a truly elite level while he leads a Toronto team, that would have long bombed out without him, to what sure looks like a title and over GS, after a 2-0 run on their floor. 

 

It was funny they showed Toronto's record this year without Kawhi...they are actually better without him than with him. But that is the narrative in GS with KD down. It's dumb really. Fact is when GS signed KD they gave up their bench...they gave up their third scorer in Harrison Barnes (even though he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in that 2016 finals) they just lack fire power and their defensive rotations without KD. The reason why the 3rd quarter Warriors are the 31st team in the NBA is because when all 3 stars are on the floor together they just overwhelm teams...but the rest of the game they typically play with 2 of the 3 and that is usually enough...right now Steph and Klay have shown they are the only two consistent scorers. Watching wide open guys pass up shots over and over to get them the ball it is clear they just aren't enough. Injuries/age kill dynasties....this one is likely over because of just too many injuries to overcome...missing Klay in game 3 and KD...that's the risk you take being top heavy..if they go down you don't have enough bench to carry you through. Klay and Steph were enough to get past Portland but they look exhausted and a hamstring injury likely because Klay is over taxed. I don't think this series would have been close with KD...but clearly without him and with the injuries to Looney and Klay and Boogie isn't in shape and Andre has a calf injury too...they are the wounded warriors..not the champs anymore.

[dgambill]

4 hours ago, rico said:

Can the Warriors pull off a miracle?

If they were fully healthy it wouldn't be a miracle..but they aren't even close to that...and now Steph and Klay and Iggy look out of gas. 5 consecutive years of playing in the finals I mean adding up all those post season games they've almost another season on top...their bodies just don't have the same lift/spring...and they are without their best player..it was a long shot from the beginning. The thing is Kawhi would not be as efficient as he is now if he had to guard someone in this series. Had he been forced to expend a ton of energy guarding KD he wouldn't have the energy to do what he does on offense. This series is over...and I doubt KD comes back and if he did he isn't 100%. It was a nice run but I think this is the end for the Warrior dynasty.

[Zlinedavid]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

 

I'm sure you know this but the trade was determined for the rights to the pick.  Then the spurs told the pacers who they wanted at that pick.  Most people at the time liked the trade and it did bring aome value to the pacers for a few years.  Sure hindsight is always 20/20.  Going forward if the spurs or patriots ask you to trade, you just decline.  

If the Pacers traded the pick to the Spurs in advance of the draft, and the Spurs drafted Leonard, the optics of this trade are completely different. At the time, was Hill worth a mid 1st round pick? Yes. In any universe, is George Hill equal to Kawhi Leonard? No.

[IU Scott]

4 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

As a Pacers fan we're forced to remember that Kawhi Leonard was traded by Larry Bird  to San Antonio for George Hill. Thanks Larry!!

 Kudos to Toronto. Maybe this might force or motivate the Pacers one of these decades to actually unhinge the Simon purse strings and go get a superstar. That whole small market stuff may have been true years/decades ago but hasn't been in awhile. In ALL sports.

The Pacers did not really draft Leonard but they chose him for the Spurs.  If there was no trade in place I doubt the Pacers would have chosen him since we already had Paul George.

[IU Scott]

28 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

If the Pacers traded the pick to the Spurs in advance of the draft, and the Spurs drafted Leonard, the optics of this trade are completely different. At the time, was Hill worth a mid 1st round pick? Yes. In any universe, is George Hill equal to Kawhi Leonard? No.

At the time of the drat no one would have seen what Leonard has become because no one thought this was possible for him.

[Zlinedavid]

Just now, IU Scott said:

At the time of the drat no one would have seen what Leonard has become because no one thought this was possible for him.

Exactly. Because of the way the trade was executed (assuming because of either salary cap or other restrictions), it's easy to say "He traded Kawhi for Hill". No. He traded a first round pick for Hill.  If the Spurs told the Pacers to pick Chris Singleton, Chandler Parsons, or any other 2011 draftee, that's what they would have done. Bird and the Pacers had zero input into who that pick was, and had zero intention of keeping whoever it was.

Like I said, if the pick could have been sent to SA before the draft and they made the pick directly, Bird doesn't get half the criticism he does for that trade.

[Zlinedavid]

4 hours ago, rico said:

Can the Warriors pull off a miracle?

They overcame a 3-1 defecit in the 2016 west finals.....and then blew a 3-1 lead in the Finals.

I think they're too beaten up to overcome 3-1 though,especially with Game 5 in TO.

[Hoosierhoopster]

26 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

They overcame a 3-1 defecit in the 2016 west finals.....and then blew a 3-1 lead in the Finals.

I think they're too beaten up to overcome 3-1 though,especially with Game 5 in TO.

I think Toronto has this in the bag, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if GS wins the next one, a close out game. 

GS came back against that Thunder team and KD and Westbrook choked. I don’t see Kawhi and the Raps choking. 

The excuses and minimizing what Toronto is doing in the above posts frankly surprise me. They shredded the Bucks on that 4-0 run, Kawhi is playing as the best in the game, they are owning GS straight up. Klay made no excuses, that’s the better look 

[dgambill]

38 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I think Toronto has this in the bag, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if GS wins the next one, a close out game. 

GS came back against that Thunder team and KD and Westbrook choked. I don’t see Kawhi and the Raps choking. 

The excuses and minimizing what Toronto is doing in the above posts frankly surprise me. They shredded the Bucks on that 4-0 run, Kawhi is playing as the best in the game, they are owning GS straight up. Klay made no excuses, that’s the better look 

I don't think it is minimizing anything to state the obvious. They've defeated a beat up and neutered GS team. They absolutely will deserve the NBA Championship...it's still a great accomplishment but let's not overstate the achievement. They didn't bring down the dynasty...injuries did...and they finished them off. To act like this GS team is not a shell of its former self I think is funny. It's still a very good team...maybe third or fourth best in the NBA without KD and an injured Klay, Looney, and Iggy but they aren't full strength. This is comparable to the Lakers beating the 87 Celtics...a team that was just a broken down version of it's 86 glorious self. Walton, McHale, Parrish, Ainge all with serious injuries Boston was still good...but not it's great self...Lakers were still the champs but it wasn't as if it was the same as taking out one of the greatest teams of the decade. The degree of accomplishment the Raptors are performing is not the same as taking out the vaunted champs. It won't diminish their crown...but it certainly will change how history views the level of achievement. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

I don't think it is minimizing anything to state the obvious. They've defeated a beat up and neutered GS team. They absolutely will deserve the NBA Championship...it's still a great accomplishment but let's not overstate the achievement. They didn't bring down the dynasty...injuries did...and they finished them off. To act like this GS team is not a shell of its former self I think is funny. It's still a very good team...maybe third or fourth best in the NBA without KD and an injured Klay, Looney, and Iggy but they aren't full strength. This is comparable to the Lakers beating the 87 Celtics...a team that was just a broken down version of it's 86 glorious self. Walton, McHale, Parrish, Ainge all with serious injuries Boston was still good...but not it's great self...Lakers were still the champs but it wasn't as if it was the same as taking out one of the greatest teams of the decade. The degree of accomplishment the Raptors are performing is not the same as taking out the vaunted champs. It won't diminish their crown...but it certainly will change how history views the level of achievement. 

Your obvious and mine differ. Of course GS is not 100 percent. But you continue to ignore they’ve played much better, during these playoffs, without KD. They walked over a hot Portland team. Curry has been playing probably the best ball of his career.  

They aren’t “neutered.” Klay was just as fine as Kawhi has been in game 4. Kawhi has been less than 100 percent throughout the playoffs and Toronto has played a tougher playoff schedule. Philly and Milwaukee were both very good. Yes, Toronto does deserve it - they’re playing better and Kawhi is playing better than anyone. 

I said going in it would be interesting to see who on GS could stop Kawhi. He was killing them last time before Pachula’s dirty play, and he’s killing them again. 

Also said I thought GS would probably need KD in this series and am not saying otherwise now. But assuming he would’ve taken GS past Toronto is assuming a lot. Who knows. And btw GS has, for years, gotten the benefit of other teams suffering untimely injuries. 

[rico]

2 hours ago, dgambill said:

I don't think it is minimizing anything to state the obvious. They've defeated a beat up and neutered GS team. They absolutely will deserve the NBA Championship...it's still a great accomplishment but let's not overstate the achievement. They didn't bring down the dynasty...injuries did...and they finished them off. To act like this GS team is not a shell of its former self I think is funny. It's still a very good team...maybe third or fourth best in the NBA without KD and an injured Klay, Looney, and Iggy but they aren't full strength. This is comparable to the Lakers beating the 87 Celtics...a team that was just a broken down version of it's 86 glorious self. Walton, McHale, Parrish, Ainge all with serious injuries Boston was still good...but not it's great self...Lakers were still the champs but it wasn't as if it was the same as taking out one of the greatest teams of the decade. The degree of accomplishment the Raptors are performing is not the same as taking out the vaunted champs. It won't diminish their crown...but it certainly will change how history views the level of achievement. 

[rico]

Me thinks the dynasty is over.  Not saying they can't win another one, just saying I feel it is over.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Your obvious and mine differ. Of course GS is not 100 percent. But you continue to ignore they’ve played much better, during these playoffs, without KD. They walked over a hot Portland team. Curry has been playing probably the best ball of his career.  

They aren’t “neutered.” Klay was just as fine as Kawhi has been in game 4. Kawhi has been less than 100 percent throughout the playoffs and Toronto has played a tougher playoff schedule. Philly and Milwaukee were both very good. Yes, Toronto does deserve it - they’re playing better and Kawhi is playing better than anyone. 

I said going in it would be interesting to see who on GS could stop Kawhi. He was killing them last time before Pachula’s dirty play, and he’s killing them again. 

Also said I thought GS would probably need KD in this series and am not saying otherwise now. But assuming he would’ve taken GS past Toronto is assuming a lot. Who knows. And btw GS has, for years, gotten the benefit of other teams suffering untimely injuries. 

No doubt...that happens. All I’m saying is it isn’t belittling Toronto’s championship if they win it to say injuries contributed to the end of the GS dynasty...no more than to say Lebrons championship in Cleveland benefited to the league suspending Draymond in Game 5 of that series altering the momentum. It’s belittling to say GS is better without KD...it’s just plain dumb. Just because they’ve managed to beat teams during the regular season and they matched up well with Portland without KD doesn’t mean they are better without him...that like saying because Toronto had a better regular season record without Kawhi than with him they would be better without him in the playoffs....it’s laughable...but by the numbers apparently Toronto fans should hope Kawhi gets hurt and can’t play. It would be nice to see both teams at full strength but that won’t happen. It does look like the end of the road for GS...Durant is likely moving on and with everyone making so much money they are way over the cap and won’t be able to sign anyone to replace him. Who knows though...maybe they draft another super star like this all started. Here’s to hoping we see the Pacers go all in like Toronto did...if you never risk anything you can’t win big...great job by Toronto’s front office!

Edited June 8, 2019 by dgambill

[KDB]

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

^^ Going to be another interesting NBA off-season / draft

[Hoosierhoopster]

Meanwhile Durant returns tonight. What a wild Finals it's been.