Billingsley99 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 My 2 cents, like many long time IU fans we would love to see many things out of our program but 2 things that I want more than any other are players that play hard and play smart. Unfortunately I can say this group of players do neither on a consistent basis in my humble opinion. They make it hard to watch and even more difficult to enjoy 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: My 2 cents, like many long time IU fans we would love to see many things out of our program but 2 things that I want more than any other are players that play hard and play smart. Unfortunately I can say this group of players do neither on a consistent basis in my humble opinion. They make it hard to watch and even more difficult to enjoy I think that's a good summary without having to say too much. Do I enjoy watching them or not? I don't mind watching losses in general if the effort is there and if there's a semblance of progression. But losses (and even wins) that show regression, a lack of effort, sloppiness and a lack of fundamentals are hard to watch. but I watch anyway because I'm a glutton for punishment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 I know a big complaint under Archie was lack of effort, lack of playing hard, and just lack of playing with enthusiasm. I can't say that's something I've felt under Woodson. I think his teams have generally played hard pretty consistently. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maedhros Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Concerns over recruiting are as simple as asking do you like the roster this year or not. We're stuck with a lot of overlapping skills in the frontcourt, and little in the way of skill at all in the backcourt. Roster construction is the end goal of any recruiting efforts. Transfer Portal makes it easier to adjust on the fly, but it's not like shopping at a store where you can pick up what you need off the shelf. We knew guard depth and skill was going to be an issue heading into the offseason, and we failed to land anyone who might address that need. Missed on Fland. Who's next? Daquan Davis doesn't even have an offer at the moment, from what I can tell. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 10 minutes ago, Maedhros said: Concerns over recruiting are as simple as asking do you like the roster this year or not. We're stuck with a lot of overlapping skills in the frontcourt, and little in the way of skill at all in the backcourt. Roster construction is the end goal of any recruiting efforts. Transfer Portal makes it easier to adjust on the fly, but it's not like shopping at a store where you can pick up what you need off the shelf. We knew guard depth and skill was going to be an issue heading into the offseason, and we failed to land anyone who might address that need. Missed on Fland. Who's next? Daquan Davis doesn't even have an offer at the moment, from what I can tell. Signing numerous quality big men with overlapping skillsets is proving to be the fruit of the poisonous tree....or like me ordering a beef and cheddar croissant with hot peppers from Portllo's. It's very enticing in the moment but leaves me with a regretful ring of fire. TMI? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: Signing numerous quality big men with overlapping skillsets is proving to be the fruit of the poisonous tree....or like me ordering a beef and cheddar croissant with hot peppers from Portllo's. It's very enticing in the moment but leaves me with a regretful ring of fire. TMI? i know the feeling. on a basketball note - i generally want to stockpile the most talent i can get and make it work. this plan is clearly not working right now though. gotta do a better job of getting pieces that fit. how Painter is able to hit at such a high rate with guys who fit his system perfectly is super impressive to me. i hate the SMELLERMAKERS as much as anyone on here, but he gets the right pieces more often than not and they are mostly guys i wouldn't even want at IU! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maedhros Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: Signing numerous quality big men with overlapping skillsets is proving to be the fruit of the poisonous tree....or like me ordering a beef and cheddar croissant with hot peppers from Portllo's. It's very enticing in the moment but leaves me with a regretful ring of fire. TMI? Woodson landing Queen and still targeting bigs in the transfter portal 🤝 Me lining up for more pours of beer, deep into the late hours of Winterfest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDPU95 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said: i know the feeling. on a basketball note - i generally want to stockpile the most talent i can get and make it work. this plan is clearly not working right now though. gotta do a better job of getting pieces that fit. how Painter is able to hit at such a high rate with guys who fit his system perfectly is super impressive to me. i hate the SMELLERMAKERS as much as anyone on here, but he gets the right pieces more often than not and they are mostly guys i wouldn't even want at IU! How much of Painter's success in getting those kinds of pieces would you contribute to the amount of time he's been working at it? I don't think he came out of the gate doing it but has figured it out over time and has developed a formula that he believes in and rolls with. Getting the best talent available and trying to make it work appears to be Woodson's formula at this point but as many have highlighted numerous times, he's new to coaching at the college level and has some learning/developing to do of his own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said: How much of Painter's success in getting those kinds of pieces would you contribute to the amount of time he's been working at it? I don't think he came out of the gate doing it but has figured it out over time and has developed a formula that he believes in and rolls with. Getting the best talent available and trying to make it work appears to be Woodson's formula at this point but as many have highlighted numerous times, he's new to coaching at the college level and has some learning/developing to do of his own. agree. absolutely kills me to give them credit, but he does a really good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Didn't help Painter too much last year in the games we played against them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, KDB said: his team can 100% be a tournament team, don't care what any projections think. I think the entire board agrees with this. The reality is as of today they wouldn’t be, and it wouldn’t be close. They have a lot of work to do in the next two months. Given that everyone seems to think we have the pieces to be a tournament team, it is squarely on the coaching staff if we aren’t. They can adjust and get the most out of the two most experienced players on the roster, or they can throw them under the bus because the staff has failed to scheme in an optimal way. It’s 100% up to the staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 16 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Given that everyone seems to think we have the pieces to be a tournament team, it is squarely on the coaching staff if we aren’t. They can adjust and get the most out of the two most experienced players on the roster, or they can throw them under the bus because the staff has failed to scheme in an optimal way. It’s 100% up to the staff. Mike Woodson isn't the one who committed 3 turnovers in 1 minute and 2 seconds versus Nebraska...That's on XJ... But he always seems to need a "warm up" period be it the beginning of the season or coming back off of a layoff...I hope this time it's a short one... Coaching (like any leadership position) can only put kids in a situation to succeed...Execution is up to the kid himself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: Mike Woodson isn't the one who committed 3 turnovers in 1 minute and 2 seconds versus Nebraska...That's on XJ... But he always seems to need a "warm up" period be it the beginning of the season or coming back off of a layoff...I hope this time it's a short one... Coaching (like any leadership position) can only put kids in a situation to succeed...Execution is up to the kid himself... I agree that leadership can only put people in a situation to succeed, I don’t agree the stuff we run a good bit of the time on offense and almost all the time on defense does that. We’ve been a borderline elite three point shooting team since December started and yet our attempts are still really low. Is that not a schematic issue? We do really well getting our guards going downhill with DHO, PnR, etc and yet we don’t consistently do it. Our default offense seems to be dump it into the post. Is that not a schematic issue? We have over helped for three years. We have film going back to when Woodson was HC of the Knicks that his teams do this. Is that not a schematic issue? This roster is flawed but it’s good enough to be better than we are. We aren’t playing in an optimal way, the coaches need to figure it out. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Just now, KoB2011 said: We’ve been a borderline elite three point shooting team since December started and yet our attempts are still really low. Is that not a schematic issue? I'm not sure...I do know that Woody has said repeatedly he wants players to shoot when they're open...I saw XJ chastise Mgbako for passing up a 3 early in the Nebraska game, so maybe sometimes that experience thing... 2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: We do really well getting our guards going downhill with DHO, PnR, etc and yet we don’t consistently do it. Our default offense seems to be dump it into the post. Is that not a schematic issue? I saw us try it a lot vs Nebraska, and we wound up getting stripped just as we turned the corner...I saw very little of us simply dumping it in the post, especially early on... 4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: We have over helped for three years. We have film going back to when Woodson was HC of the Knicks that his teams do this. Is that not a schematic issue? Again, couldn't it be an execution issue? 5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: This roster is flawed but it’s good enough to be better than we are. We aren’t playing in an optimal way, the coaches need to figure it out. I disagree here...The PLAYERS need to figure it out...Mike Woodson isn't just going to show up to practice and change his fundamental offensive and defensive philosophies some day...What could he have done to prevent 19 turnovers? Say "Don't do that" in the huddle? I'm sure he did...Probably more emphatically and using different language... All of the coaching in the world can't overcome poor decisions...And we made a ton of them... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 (edited) 22 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Mike Woodson isn't the one who committed 3 turnovers in 1 minute and 2 seconds versus Nebraska...That's on XJ... But he always seems to need a "warm up" period be it the beginning of the season or coming back off of a layoff...I hope this time it's a short one... Coaching (like any leadership position) can only put kids in a situation to succeed...Execution is up to the kid himself... The players execute within the scheme they are told to play. If you have constant failure to execute, this tells me that they are not grasping the scheme. Who is responsible for the scheme? I was just listening to Assembly Call this morning and they talking about how in Woody's nail, slot, rim defense the defenders are trained to watch the ball and then react. But this leads to a lot of wide open back cuts. In the most obvious back cut of the night in Nebraska, Cupps was caught watching the ball and it lead to a wide open layup (off of a back cut). But he's doing what he's been trained to do. So in this scenario, is the defensive breakdown a failure on Cupps, or the scheme? Edited January 5 by tdhoosier 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, tdhoosier said: If you have constant failure to execute, this tells me that they are not grasping the scheme. You know, we're never going to agree on this, so why bother? Y'all think it's the "scheme" and it's Woody's fault...I think the players are responsible for their play...it's as simple as that... Bob Knight was probably the greatest basketball coaching mind of all time, and I saw lack of execution in his teams from time to time...It happens...It's a fast paced game, the other teams have talented players, and it happens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 (edited) Here's the turning point of the Nebraska game...In a little over a minute, we went from 3 down to 8 down...We never got closer than 4 after this... Edited January 5 by IUFLA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 If something has been a consistent problem for 2.5 years, that's on the coach not the players. Lack of 3pt volume, overhelping, two bigs clogging the lane/lack of consistent DHO, high PnR, horns, and spacing, consistently poor 3pt defense, etc. That doesn't mean the players are blameless by any means. 19 turnovers in an isolated game is largely a player issue. That's an anomaly that comes from unfocused players and lack of execution. The fast break miscues/mistakes the other night, that's on the players. But the persistent issues are on the coaches. It's equal opportunity, but it's Mike Woodson's job to get it right, and there is enough talent that IU should be a tournament team. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 So this year's problems lay squarely on the players, and we also shouldn't be worried about our roster for next year because Woodson he has proven he can recruit. And the proof he can recruit is this group of players. Do I have all that right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: So this year's problems lay squarely on the players, and we also shouldn't be worried about our roster for next year because Woodson he has proven he can recruit. And the proof he can recruit is this group of players. Do I have all that right? Not really...You guys seem to think if Woody "tweaks" his system or makes a full scale overhaul, that the players will execute it better and we'll win games...I like @Billingsley99 and think he's one of the more knowledgeable posters around, and while I think he's right about the playing smart part, I do think this team plays hard for the most part...Their big issue is simply experience for some players, and bad decision making at times by others, notably our senior backcourt...Good teams have good talent and make more good decisions than bad... I put it very simply in showing where we lost the game...even provided a graphic to show it...Poor decision making doomed us, and it wasn't the coach making those decision... We're not going to agree, and I've made a promise to myself not to get into the back and forth in the interest of keeping the board sane... So, you can believe what you want...And I'll do the same... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDPU95 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 21 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Not really...You guys seem to think if Woody "tweaks" his system or makes a full scale overhaul, that the players will execute it better and we'll win games...I like @Billingsley99 and think he's one of the more knowledgeable posters around, and while I think he's right about the playing smart part, I do think this team plays hard for the most part...Their big issue is simply experience for some players, and bad decision making at times by others, notably our senior backcourt...Good teams have good talent and make more good decisions than bad... I put it very simply in showing where we lost the game...even provided a graphic to show it...Poor decision making doomed us, and it wasn't the coach making those decision... We're not going to agree, and I've made a promise to myself not to get into the back and forth in the interest of keeping the board sane... So, you can believe what you want...And I'll do the same... giving up 27 points off of 19 turnover has nothing to do with scheme 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 52 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Here's the turning point of the Nebraska game...In a little over a minute, we went from 3 down to 8 down...We never got closer than 4 after this... Pass off of a defenders foot, that led to two wide open threes because we over-help, don’t rebound, and didn’t rotate. Then driving into a clogged paint with a stagnant offense. It was an absolutely terrible possession and it wasn’t just Johnson - Ware never left the opposite block, Banks never left the opposite corner we had terrible spacing and no movement, which is something we’ve had for three years And then a forced entry pass to the post and an easy steal. Galloway and X were both out top and didn’t move more than like 3 feet each for ten seconds before the entry pas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 38 minutes ago, IUFLA said: We're not going to agree, and I've made a promise to myself not to get into the back and forth in the interest of keeping the board sane... So, you can believe what you want...And I'll do the same... Then why did you quote me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 (edited) 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: You know, we're never going to agree on this, so why bother? Y'all think it's the "scheme" and it's Woody's fault...I think the players are responsible for their play...it's as simple as that... Bob Knight was probably the greatest basketball coaching mind of all time, and I saw lack of execution in his teams from time to time...It happens...It's a fast paced game, the other teams have talented players, and it happens... I know we have a difference in opinion to how much the coaching staff is to blame for the performances. I’m only ‘bothering’ to reply, in order to get an understanding to where you’re coming from. I’d just like to know if you think the schemes have anything to do with our performance. If you think both execution and scheme are an issue, but moreso player execution, that is fine. Maybe you think it’s 80/20. I don’t know. But the way you’re posting (unless I missed something), it leads me to believe that the scheme is not an issue at all. Is this the case? Do you believe the coaches are completely off the hook here? Edited January 5 by tdhoosier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyhoosier29 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 5 hours ago, Kdug said: Some of those guys were legitimately useful players lol. And with Smith all he needed was a good coach like he had after transferring to Arkansas, and he became a good player. But if we can ignore an all-big ten player let’s do that with what Woodson took over. Race - good, also should play the same position as our all big-ten caliber player. Galloway - who’s probably the only other player Woodson inherited that people would argue is good, averaged 3.5 ppg on bad shooting under Archie. You put a laughing emoji by Newkirk who was basically a more efficient, veteran version of Galloway. Geronimo - lol Leal - like him as a person, but basically a walk on Duncomb - not good Phinisee - not good Lander - not good So again, if Archie took over a “dumpster fire”, so did Woodson. The reality is that neither did, and people just like to make excuses for Archie while making Crean look bad. At least Archie inherited a starting big ten caliber guard to go along with his all-big ten forward, while woodson inherited another starting forward to go along with his all-big ten forward. You’re stretching big time if you’re wanting to make the case that he inherited much. Come on, some just like to bash CAM bc it’s easy. Yeah, he needed to go, but be honest at least. Justin Smith was mediocre in all facets, and wasn’t productive until his very last year (benefitted from being on a good team). So inheriting Morgan, Smith (in your words), and a serviceable guard should have been enough to win… 3 on 5 is a tough task. I didn’t say anything about what Woodson inherited, just think people piling on CAM is ridiculous. We’re past his shortcomings. No excuse for Woodson at this point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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