IUBB '24/‘25

[NCHoosier32]

3 minutes ago, Reacher said:

I like that he is assuming you will have to relocate so you don't get kicked out after giving it to the KS bench 😁

seems like a likely scenario with the group i will be with and Hunter Dickinson involved.  i just hope Dickinson doesn't kill me.  

[Parakeet Jones]

16 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

My buddy just informed me that we will start the Kansas game 2 rows behind Kansas bench.  He said if we want we can change at half to 7th row in a different spot or go watch in the Club and have beers and snacks.  I'm already losing my mind and it's a week away!

Please hold up a sign saying, “Parakeet Jones rules,” when behind the KU bench. 
 

Im jealous. I had to sell my tickets because of Little Keet’s All County practice schedule. 

[Purdue7]

7 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

My buddy just informed me that we will start the Kansas game 2 rows behind Kansas bench.  He said if we want we can change at half to 7th row in a different spot or go watch in the Club and have beers and snacks.  I'm already losing my mind and it's a week away!

Can you grab Self’s “hair” ?

Punch Dickinson  in the face 🤛 ?

 

[NCHoosier32]

12 hours ago, Purdue7 said:

Can you grab Self’s “hair” ?

Punch Dickinson  in the face 🤛 ?

 

Dickinson would laugh and squash me like a bug, but I can be pretty annoying.  

[BGleas]

I think the key line here is "how the bench is getting used" not the that the bench is being used. 

 

 

[BGleas]

Here's another one. I'd be curious to see these numbers in P5 games only. 

 

 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Here's another one. I'd be curious to see these numbers in P5 games only. 

 

 

Put another way, one of Reneau and Ware should always be in. And one of Galloway and X when both are healthy.

It’s not that complicated IMO. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

Put another way, one of Reneau and Ware should always be in. And one of Galloway and X when both are healthy.

It’s not that complicated IMO. 

Yeah, agree. Take guys like Banks and Gunn.

Banks looked really good in the UConn game when he got extended minutes with the starters because MM was in foul trouble. 

He did not look great yesterday in the full sub lineup. 

Gunn struggles in the full sub lineup, but played well in the Michigan game when he got extended minutes with the starters. 

Play the bench, but play them in situations where they can play a role and be successful. 

[NCHoosier32]

i know i shouldn't question Mike Woodson, but it does seem pretty easy.  can never have 3 of Reneau, Ware, Sparks, Banks, Walker in together.  like 0 minutes.  always have either Reneau or Ware in.  always have either Cupps or Galloway in.  generally have minimum 3 starters in.  take advantage of resting guys in combination right before or right after a media timeout.  sub guys briefly on FTs and then get them back in after a short break.  these are 18-23 year olds.  they should be in really good shape.  

[Cbp4IU]

5 hours ago, BGleas said:

I think the key line here is "how the bench is getting used" not the that the bench is being used. 

 

 

More reason for Gunn to be cut from the rotation.

[go_iu_bb]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Yeah, agree. Take guys like Banks and Gunn.

Banks looked really good in the UConn game when he got extended minutes with the starters because MM was in foul trouble. 

He did not look great yesterday in the full sub lineup. 

Gunn struggles in the full sub lineup, but played well in the Michigan game when he got extended minutes with the starters. 

Play the bench, but play them in situations where they can play a role and be successful. 

Yes, piecemeal substitutions instead of groups. Only 1 or 2 bench players in at a time.

The starters should be getting 30+ mpg on this team. Maybe more than that, like 35 mpg.

Edited December 10, 2023 by go_iu_bb

[NCHoosier32]

oh, and keep your best guys on the floor as much as possible regardless of position.  

[IUFLA]

Newton "probably not playing this year"  according to Woody via @The Daily Hoosier

[13th&Jackson]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Newton "probably not playing this year"  according to Woody via @The Daily Hoosier

I just hope the kid can return to walking normally. He had a misdiagnosis of the original injury in April '22. He played on the injured knee, which shouldn't have happened. He then had microfracture surgery in August. I'll leave that to the physicians regarding his long term health, but it doesn't have a good history for basketball players.

“The early results of microfracture seemed to be promising, particularly in young patients,” Dr. Wiemi Douoguih, the head team doctor for the Wizards, said in a phone interview. “And so everybody sort of jumped on the bandwagon to say, ‘Hey, this is what we are going to do to fix this problem.’”

Now, many doctors are trending away from the surgery. According to data kept by the sports medicine and analytics research team (SMART), 14 players had microfracture surgery between 2003 and 2010, including Stoudemire. For many of the players who underwent microfracture surgery, the procedure hastened the end of their career. Penny Hardaway, Chris Webber, Allan Houston and Ron Harper were never the same. Since 2010, only five players have had it.

A 2018 study found that the failure rate of microfracture surgery was 66 percent, compared with 51 percent in patients that had OAT surgery — a procedure in which cartilage is transplanted from a cadaver or another joint in the body. The study defined failure as scoring less than 65 on the Lysholm scale, which measures a patient’s pain, instability, locking, swelling, limp, stair climbing and squatting. This was one of the first studies to compare the two procedures.

“I get calls all the time from players who are recommended (to have) the microfracture,” Stoudemire said. “I just tell them, ‘Listen, man, I was able to bounce back from it, but not everyone can. It’s an excruciating recovery.’ I told the same thing to Chandler Parsons when he was in Dallas. Getting the microfracture is one thing, but the recovery is another. It takes dedication, focus and a lot of perseverance to get over that hump.”

 

Stoudemire’s experience is hardly unique. Of the 23 NBA players who have had microfracture surgery since 2003, nine needed to have an additional knee surgery. Five of those went on to have multiple knee surgeries.

The medical community, in turn, has responded to that track record and advised players to seek alternatives.

 

“I don’t think anyone in 2014 would advise Greg Oden to get microfracture if he had the same issues he showed back then,” one NBA team doctor, who asked to remain anonymous because he was discussing another team’s player, said. “The thinking has changed. It is still a good surgery in some cases, but not for high-level athletes.”

 

“Microfracture surgery, we call those salvage procedures,” said Dr. Timothy Hewett of Ohio State’s Sports Health and Performance Institute. “Cartilage holds a lot of water and, in that sense, it is a great shock absorber. Fibrocartilage or scar tissue does not do that, it does not dissipate the force as well. … Microfracture had its day, and in some situations it is still relevant.

"But with high-level athletes, returning to their sport, these guys have high body mass, they are landing in the range of four to 10 times their body weight—fibrocartilage, the scar cartilage, is not going to hold up in that situation.”

One doctor estimates that there is a return-to-sport rate of only about 40 percent with microfracture, and a study published last year in the Orthopedic Journal of Sports showed that NBA players show significantly reduced production after the surgery.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/greg-oden-miami-heat-portland-trailblazers-microfracture-surgery-nba-amare-stoudemire-penny-hardaway/q8kigrtngvn1pp3m8bgvdv2q

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-spt-nba-microfracture-surgery-amare-stoudemire-20180706-story.html

 

[go_iu_bb]

35 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

I just hope the kid can return to walking normally. He had a misdiagnosis of the original injury in April '22. He played on the injured knee, which shouldn't have happened. He then had microfracture surgery in August. I'll leave that to the physicians regarding his long term health, but it doesn't have a good history for basketball players.

“The early results of microfracture seemed to be promising, particularly in young patients,” Dr. Wiemi Douoguih, the head team doctor for the Wizards, said in a phone interview. “And so everybody sort of jumped on the bandwagon to say, ‘Hey, this is what we are going to do to fix this problem.’”

Now, many doctors are trending away from the surgery. According to data kept by the sports medicine and analytics research team (SMART), 14 players had microfracture surgery between 2003 and 2010, including Stoudemire. For many of the players who underwent microfracture surgery, the procedure hastened the end of their career. Penny Hardaway, Chris Webber, Allan Houston and Ron Harper were never the same. Since 2010, only five players have had it.

A 2018 study found that the failure rate of microfracture surgery was 66 percent, compared with 51 percent in patients that had OAT surgery — a procedure in which cartilage is transplanted from a cadaver or another joint in the body. The study defined failure as scoring less than 65 on the Lysholm scale, which measures a patient’s pain, instability, locking, swelling, limp, stair climbing and squatting. This was one of the first studies to compare the two procedures.

“I get calls all the time from players who are recommended (to have) the microfracture,” Stoudemire said. “I just tell them, ‘Listen, man, I was able to bounce back from it, but not everyone can. It’s an excruciating recovery.’ I told the same thing to Chandler Parsons when he was in Dallas. Getting the microfracture is one thing, but the recovery is another. It takes dedication, focus and a lot of perseverance to get over that hump.”

 

Stoudemire’s experience is hardly unique. Of the 23 NBA players who have had microfracture surgery since 2003, nine needed to have an additional knee surgery. Five of those went on to have multiple knee surgeries.

The medical community, in turn, has responded to that track record and advised players to seek alternatives.

 

“I don’t think anyone in 2014 would advise Greg Oden to get microfracture if he had the same issues he showed back then,” one NBA team doctor, who asked to remain anonymous because he was discussing another team’s player, said. “The thinking has changed. It is still a good surgery in some cases, but not for high-level athletes.”

 

“Microfracture surgery, we call those salvage procedures,” said Dr. Timothy Hewett of Ohio State’s Sports Health and Performance Institute. “Cartilage holds a lot of water and, in that sense, it is a great shock absorber. Fibrocartilage or scar tissue does not do that, it does not dissipate the force as well. … Microfracture had its day, and in some situations it is still relevant.

"But with high-level athletes, returning to their sport, these guys have high body mass, they are landing in the range of four to 10 times their body weight—fibrocartilage, the scar cartilage, is not going to hold up in that situation.”

One doctor estimates that there is a return-to-sport rate of only about 40 percent with microfracture, and a study published last year in the Orthopedic Journal of Sports showed that NBA players show significantly reduced production after the surgery.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/greg-oden-miami-heat-portland-trailblazers-microfracture-surgery-nba-amare-stoudemire-penny-hardaway/q8kigrtngvn1pp3m8bgvdv2q

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-spt-nba-microfracture-surgery-amare-stoudemire-20180706-story.html

 

Man, I feel for the guy. Bad doctors and bad advice might have derailed his career before it even began.

[Kdug]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:54 PM, BGleas said:

I think the key line here is "how the bench is getting used" not the that the bench is being used. 

 

 

Plus/minus is a meaningless stat for individual players. Without knowing who else is on the floor and who the opponent is, it can be extremely misleading.

[Purdue7]

1 hour ago, 13th&Jackson said:

I just hope the kid can return to walking normally. He had a misdiagnosis of the original injury in April '22. He played on the injured knee, which shouldn't have happened. He then had microfracture surgery in August. I'll leave that to the physicians regarding his long term health, but it doesn't have a good history for basketball players.

“The early results of microfracture seemed to be promising, particularly in young patients,” Dr. Wiemi Douoguih, the head team doctor for the Wizards, said in a phone interview. “And so everybody sort of jumped on the bandwagon to say, ‘Hey, this is what we are going to do to fix this problem.’”

Now, many doctors are trending away from the surgery. According to data kept by the sports medicine and analytics research team (SMART), 14 players had microfracture surgery between 2003 and 2010, including Stoudemire. For many of the players who underwent microfracture surgery, the procedure hastened the end of their career. Penny Hardaway, Chris Webber, Allan Houston and Ron Harper were never the same. Since 2010, only five players have had it.

A 2018 study found that the failure rate of microfracture surgery was 66 percent, compared with 51 percent in patients that had OAT surgery — a procedure in which cartilage is transplanted from a cadaver or another joint in the body. The study defined failure as scoring less than 65 on the Lysholm scale, which measures a patient’s pain, instability, locking, swelling, limp, stair climbing and squatting. This was one of the first studies to compare the two procedures.

“I get calls all the time from players who are recommended (to have) the microfracture,” Stoudemire said. “I just tell them, ‘Listen, man, I was able to bounce back from it, but not everyone can. It’s an excruciating recovery.’ I told the same thing to Chandler Parsons when he was in Dallas. Getting the microfracture is one thing, but the recovery is another. It takes dedication, focus and a lot of perseverance to get over that hump.”

 

Stoudemire’s experience is hardly unique. Of the 23 NBA players who have had microfracture surgery since 2003, nine needed to have an additional knee surgery. Five of those went on to have multiple knee surgeries.

The medical community, in turn, has responded to that track record and advised players to seek alternatives.

 

“I don’t think anyone in 2014 would advise Greg Oden to get microfracture if he had the same issues he showed back then,” one NBA team doctor, who asked to remain anonymous because he was discussing another team’s player, said. “The thinking has changed. It is still a good surgery in some cases, but not for high-level athletes.”

 

“Microfracture surgery, we call those salvage procedures,” said Dr. Timothy Hewett of Ohio State’s Sports Health and Performance Institute. “Cartilage holds a lot of water and, in that sense, it is a great shock absorber. Fibrocartilage or scar tissue does not do that, it does not dissipate the force as well. … Microfracture had its day, and in some situations it is still relevant.

"But with high-level athletes, returning to their sport, these guys have high body mass, they are landing in the range of four to 10 times their body weight—fibrocartilage, the scar cartilage, is not going to hold up in that situation.”

One doctor estimates that there is a return-to-sport rate of only about 40 percent with microfracture, and a study published last year in the Orthopedic Journal of Sports showed that NBA players show significantly reduced production after the surgery.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/greg-oden-miami-heat-portland-trailblazers-microfracture-surgery-nba-amare-stoudemire-penny-hardaway/q8kigrtngvn1pp3m8bgvdv2q

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bulls/ct-spt-nba-microfracture-surgery-amare-stoudemire-20180706-story.html

 

That really sucks 

Makes getting an IU degree even more important while you rehab with top trainers & doctors 

 

[BGleas]

42 minutes ago, Kdug said:

Plus/minus is a meaningless stat for individual players. Without knowing who else is on the floor and who the opponent is, it can be extremely misleading.

I understand that, but there is still a story to be told. More useful here would be full lineup +/-.

But, I'm using some eye test here too on the full bench lineup or when it's full bench with just 1 starter, etc.   

[Purdue7]

MM at the 4?

 

[rogue3542]

It's really as simple as the following:

No more than 2 subs at once. 

Preferably 3 starters in at all times, but never fewer than 1 starting guard and 1 starting forward.

Unless in foul trouble, Ware only sits at the dead ball before the under 8 timeout in both halves, coming in on the next dead ball after the timeout.

I hate this idea of "load management."  It makes sense in non-competitive games, but these are 20 year-olds.  They can play a 30 game season without issue.  It's not the 82 game NBA season.

[Kdug]

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

I understand that, but there is still a story to be told. More useful here would be full lineup +/-.

But, I'm using some eye test here too on the full bench lineup or when it's full bench with just 1 starter, etc.   

I meant to respond to the comment that this shows Gunn should be removed from the rotation. I think Gunn would fit well if he rotated in with some of the starters and he acted as a 3rd/4th option on offense. 

I agree with your takeaway that the bench is not being utilized properly.

[tdhoosier]

1 hour ago, Kdug said:

I meant to respond to the comment that this shows Gunn should be removed from the rotation. I think Gunn would fit well if he rotated in with some of the starters and he acted as a 3rd/4th option on offense. 

I agree with your takeaway that the bench is not being utilized properly.

Gunn played great with the starters at Michigan. 

I just don’t think the bench guys are getting a chance to succeed because they are playing with each other instead of being rotated in with the starters. And then we wonder why they don’t develop. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, Kdug said:

I meant to respond to the comment that this shows Gunn should be removed from the rotation. I think Gunn would fit well if he rotated in with some of the starters and he acted as a 3rd/4th option on offense. 

I agree with your takeaway that the bench is not being utilized properly.

Yeah, agree! Look at both Banks and Gunn. Banks played maybe his best game of the season vs. Louisville when MM was in foul trouble and most of his minutes were with the starting group. Same with Gunn vs Michigan. 

These guys need to be mixed in with the starters to set them for success. 

[Purdue7]

Coming in as option 4 or 5 gives you a totally different mindset 

 

[94hoosier]

31 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Yeah, agree! Look at both Banks and Gunn. Banks played maybe his best game of the season vs. Louisville when MM was in foul trouble and most of his minutes were with the starting group. Same with Gunn vs Michigan. 

These guys need to be mixed in with the starters to set them for success. 

Walker and Cupps can also be included. They all look better when in the floor with 3 of the starters. I truly believe as the season goes the bench gets shorted and used a differently. Some guys will play more when there is foul trouble or they come in and play good. The bench got shorted last year as the season went. But right now we have to give some minutes to these guys to see how they can perform.