mrflynn03 Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 Our 2 best players are leaving from a team that lost 12 games and lost in the second round. That is the lower limit of where I'd expect to be consistently so I would like to at least be able to meet but rather exceed that result next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 4 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said: I expect 6 or 7 new faces. Cupps and Newton and then 4-5 portal guys or guys who decommitted and became available. (Race, TJD, Kopp, Duncomb, Geronimo, JHS, and maybe one other). Bates would be the other player I think you could question. It's not so much his average production...it's how much that production varied. In the 35 games he played this season, he threw up 10 zeros, 19 games under 6 points (season average), and 6 games where he scored 13 points or more with a high of 22. I don't have the time or energy, but for the stats nerds in this forum, it would be interesting to see which rotation player had the highest scoring standard deviation this season. I'd be shocked if it wasn't Bates. As much as Woody was willing to play Tamar, I don't think he'll shove him out the door, but surely there's a long conversation in the exit interview about getting serious about the game. Bates has shown he's capable, but it's got to drive Woody nuts trying to guess which Bates will show up from game to game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, FKIM01 said: Bates would be the other player I think you could question. It's not so much his average production...it's how much that production varied. In the 35 games he played this season, he threw up 10 zeros, 19 games under 6 points (season average), and 6 games where he scored 13 points or more with a high of 22. I don't have the time or energy, but for the stats nerds in this forum, it would be interesting to see which rotation player had the highest scoring standard deviation this season. I'd be shocked if it wasn't Bates. As much as Woody was willing to play Tamar, I don't think he'll shove him out the door, but surely there's a long conversation in the exit interview about getting serious about the game. Bates has shown he's capable, but it's got to drive Woody nuts trying to guess which Bates will show up from game to game. Really good point about the scoring deviation. And I do basically agree with your post... however, I think some are still selling him short about how much he improved from last season... I don't think we are recognizing how low the bar actually was to start, regardless of that stupid a** ranking he was given... His scoring, shooting was inconsistent. He did make SOME bad passes... but.. there was dramatic improvements in his game. His turnovers per mins played went way down, the defense was generally solid and he seemed in tune with how they wanted to rotate defensively. ESPECIALLY late in the year.. he seemed to really string a lot of solid defensive appearances together. He also had a positive A/T ratio in the conference. There are lack of focus issues at the times, again.. that has gotten better. I can't know Tamars attitude, I don't know how he is as a teammate... but, imo, if those things are in line... and still working his tail off in the weightroom, classroom, etc.... I don't see what is needed in regards to Tamar outside of continued work and development. 🤷♂️ And I do think, at minimum,.. if we can add other pieces.. he can be a 8th/9th guy.. 3 and D role next season. Truly, and I'm just asking... if Tamar was ranked 200th coming out of HS... and he took that big of a jump from FR to SO... what would your thoughts be? Edited March 25, 2023 by btownqb 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, btownqb said: Really good point about the scoring deviation. And I do basically agree with your post... however, I think some are still selling him short about how much he improved from last season... I don't think we are recognizing how low the bar actually was to start, regardless of that stupid a** ranking he was given... His scoring, shooting was inconsistent. He did make SOME bad passes... but.. there was dramatic improvements in his game. His turnovers per mins played went way down, the defense was generally solid and he seemed in tune with how they wanted to rotate defensively. ESPECIALLY late in the year.. he seemed to really string a lot of solid defensive appearances together. There are lack of focus issues at the times, again.. that has gotten better. I can't know Tamars attitude, I don't know how he is as a teammate... but, imo, if those things are in line... and still working his tail off in the weightroom, classroom, etc.... I don't see what is needed in regards to Tamar outside of continued work and development. 🤷♂️ And I do think, at minimum,.. if we can add other pieces.. he can be a 8th/9th guy.. 3 and D role next season. Truly, and I'm just asking... if Tamar was ranked 200th coming out of HS... and he took that big of a jump from FR to SO... what would your thoughts be? @DC2345 , if I'm reading the leaves properly gave Tamar a 70/30 70 going, 30 staying and said some factors could change. Would he accept an 8th man role if he were recruited over? DC, can you share what those changing variables could be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 33 minutes ago, btownqb said: Truly, and I'm just asking... if Tamar was ranked 200th coming out of HS... and he took that big of a jump from FR to SO... what would your thoughts be? A fair question. Sure...some of my frustration has to do with expectations and a nagging suspicion that Bates is not as driven and focused as he could be...that he's leaving too much on the table. Is he overrated? Quite possibly, but the standard deviation in scoring suggests maybe not as much as one might think. Wherever he ends up, I hope he finds more consistency in his game. As much as Woody played him, I don't think he'll get shown the door, but it's got to be frustrating for a coach to see such unpredictable production from a player who's proven multiple times that he can score. If you just look at the season averages, it's easy to see progression. The individual game box scores are another story. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, FKIM01 said: A fair question. Sure...some of my frustration has to do with expectations and a nagging suspicion that Bates is not as driven and focused as he could be...that he's leaving too much on the table. Is he overrated? Quite possibly, but the standard deviation in scoring suggests maybe not as much as one might think. Wherever he ends up, I hope he finds more consistency in his game. As much as Woody played him, I don't think he'll get shown the door, but it's got to be frustrating for a coach to see such unpredictable production from a player who's proven multiple times that he can score. If you just look at the season averages, it's easy to see progression. The individual game box scores are another story. 1 hour ago, btownqb said: Really good point about the scoring deviation. And I do basically agree with your post... however, I think some are still selling him short about how much he improved from last season... I don't think we are recognizing how low the bar actually was to start, regardless of that stupid a** ranking he was given... His scoring, shooting was inconsistent. He did make SOME bad passes... but.. there was dramatic improvements in his game. His turnovers per mins played went way down, the defense was generally solid and he seemed in tune with how they wanted to rotate defensively. ESPECIALLY late in the year.. he seemed to really string a lot of solid defensive appearances together. He also had a positive A/T ratio in the conference. There are lack of focus issues at the times, again.. that has gotten better. I can't know Tamars attitude, I don't know how he is as a teammate... but, imo, if those things are in line... and still working his tail off in the weightroom, classroom, etc.... I don't see what is needed in regards to Tamar outside of continued work and development. 🤷♂️ And I do think, at minimum,.. if we can add other pieces.. he can be a 8th/9th guy.. 3 and D role next season. Truly, and I'm just asking... if Tamar was ranked 200th coming out of HS... and he took that big of a jump from FR to SO... what would your thoughts be? I am probably wrong on this take, and sure I will be proven so if I am. When I watch some of these other teams and players coming off the bench, I see them gradually get into the flow of the games. Make a pass here, run a play there, get a rebound or an assist. My perception with Tamar, and again I may be incorrect, is that he comes out guns a blazing. It almost appears as though he feels he needs to get shots up because he doesn't know how long he's going to be on the floor. Don't get me wrong, there have been some games where he works within the offense and does what he does best on that end of the floor...be a spot up 3 point shooter. But there are too many occurrences where he rushes or forces bad shots to the point where it's a head scratcher as to why he's on the floor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, btownqb said: I can't know Tamars attitude, I don't know how he is as a teammate... but, imo, if those things are in line... and still working his tail off in the weightroom, classroom, etc... From everything I've read, he's a great teammate...Often cited as the funniest guy on the team who keeps everybody loose... I remember at the first of the year, there was a video of him saying "now, we are the hunted" playing upon pre-season predictions for IU...So he tries to lead...I'm just not sure, with Race, Trayce, and Miller, he was in the best position to do so... 26 minutes ago, FKIM01 said: As much as Woody played him, I don't think he'll get shown the door, but it's got to be frustrating for a coach to see such unpredictable production from a player who's proven multiple times that he can score. I'm pretty sure Coach Woodson has seen that movie before...Multiple times...And as @btownqb said 1 hour ago, btownqb said: I don't see what is needed in regards to Tamar outside of continued work and development. 🤷♂️ And according to his teammates, he has the work ethic and desire... “He is always putting that extra time in to work on his game, and I think that the way he’s been playing recently is a credit to that,” forward Race Thompson said this week. “I think that it’s (his recent level of play) not a surprise to any of us because we see him do it every day.” "Something that Tamar does really well is his work ethic," Jackson-Davis said. "He's in the gym late nights, early mornings. He's trying to be the best player that he can be, he's always starving to get better. I've taken some of the things that he does and try to implement it to myself and my work because I think he's one of the best workers on our team." I personally think he'll be back next year, and that we'll see progress to his game... Edited March 25, 2023 by IUFLA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier4Life53 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: From everything I've read, he's a great teammate...Often cited as the funniest guy on the team who keeps everybody loose... I remember at the first of the year, there was a video of him saying "now, we are the hunted" playing upon pre-season predictions for IU...So he tries to lead...I'm just not sure, with Race, Trayce, and Miller, he was in the best position to do so... I'm pretty sure Coach Woodson has seen that movie before...Multiple times...And as @btownqb said And according to his teammates, he has the work ethic and desire... “He is always putting that extra time in to work on his game, and I think that the way he’s been playing recently is a credit to that,” forward Race Thompson said this week. “I think that it’s (his recent level of play) not a surprise to any of us because we see him do it every day.” "Something that Tamar does really well is his work ethic," Jackson-Davis said. "He's in the gym late nights, early mornings. He's trying to be the best player that he can be, he's always starving to get better. I've taken some of the things that he does and try to implement it to myself and my work because I think he's one of the best workers on our team." I personally think he'll be back next year, and that we'll see progress to his game... I hope you’re right….the talent is obviously there, but it seems he lacks the confidence to put it together on a consistent basis. I don’t think it’s work ethic or desire, just a confidence issue, so let’s hope he stays and reaches his potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 Just now, Hoosier4Life53 said: I hope you’re right….the talent is obviously there, but it seems he lacks the confidence to put it together on a consistent basis. I don’t think it’s work ethic or desire, just a confidence issue, so let’s hope he stays and reaches his potential. Experience is the greatest teacher... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier4Life53 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Experience is the greatest teacher... I agree, but unfortunately that window closes quickly at this level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 My thing with Bates is that he has to do more. At this point he's too one-dimensional, and even that one thing (3pt shooting) he is very streaky at. He has to defend and he has to be able to handle the ball and get to the basket and finish. Without those other skills, he's a situational role player and the reality right now is that this roster needs more then that at the wing and guard spots. With that said, I do wonder with continued development and an updated system (not having two bigs clogging the paint all of the time) how much different and maybe "unleashed" Bates might look? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 55 minutes ago, IUFLA said: From everything I've read, he's a great teammate...Often cited as the funniest guy on the team who keeps everybody loose... I remember at the first of the year, there was a video of him saying "now, we are the hunted" playing upon pre-season predictions for IU...So he tries to lead...I'm just not sure, with Race, Trayce, and Miller, he was in the best position to do so... I'm pretty sure Coach Woodson has seen that movie before...Multiple times...And as @btownqb said And according to his teammates, he has the work ethic and desire... “He is always putting that extra time in to work on his game, and I think that the way he’s been playing recently is a credit to that,” forward Race Thompson said this week. “I think that it’s (his recent level of play) not a surprise to any of us because we see him do it every day.” "Something that Tamar does really well is his work ethic," Jackson-Davis said. "He's in the gym late nights, early mornings. He's trying to be the best player that he can be, he's always starving to get better. I've taken some of the things that he does and try to implement it to myself and my work because I think he's one of the best workers on our team." I personally think he'll be back next year, and that we'll see progress to his game... As much as I respect you, I'll take the other side of that bet. The product on the floor just doesn't match the effort you describe. If he's trying that hard, I have to wonder if he simply doesn't have the talent we thought he did. I'll be happy to be wrong and I hope I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said: I expect 6 or 7 new faces. Cupps and Newton and then 4-5 portal guys or guys who decommitted and became available. (Race, TJD, Kopp, Duncomb, Geronimo, JHS, and maybe one other). Does anybody worry about chemistry issues if we do (and I don't think we do) bring in 5 portal tranfers? We saw it to some extent with Ohio State and Illinois this year in the Big 10...And I think we saw it a lot the last few years at the one and done factories like Kentucky and Duke... I thought this article was interesting, talking about roster stability and success...It's Pac 12 related but also lays out some relevant points... Earlier I read on here that Coach Woodson has "been successful" in the portal...I'd say we're hitting .500...XJ and Kopp have been good, and Durr and Stewart (and I know he transferred to IU when Archie was the coach) weren't so good, but no one can say that everything was hunky dory on the chemistry front last year...3 of the Windy City 5 were transfers, and both Durr and Stewart had disciplinary measures taken on them... I'm just saying, that for every Kansas State story, there's an Oklahoma story to match... Edited March 25, 2023 by IUFLA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC2345 Posted March 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 2 hours ago, NotIThatLives said: @DC2345 , if I'm reading the leaves properly gave Tamar a 70/30 70 going, 30 staying and said some factors could change. Would he accept an 8th man role if he were recruited over? DC, can you share what those changing variables could be? It think he’s likely looking to move closer to home. Other factors could be a different style of play or a bigger role. He also just hasn’t really worked out and there’s a chance he could get passed up depending on how things shake out. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 53 minutes ago, BGleas said: My thing with Bates is that he has to do more. At this point he's too one-dimensional, and even that one thing (3pt shooting) he is very streaky at. He has to defend and he has to be able to handle the ball and get to the basket and finish. Without those other skills, he's a situational role player and the reality right now is that this roster needs more then that at the wing and guard spots. With that said, I do wonder with continued development and an updated system (not having two bigs clogging the paint all of the time) how much different and maybe "unleashed" Bates might look? Bates has a place on this team. I wish he would get to the FT line more. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Robby Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 33 minutes ago, DC2345 said: It think he’s likely looking to move closer to home. Other factors could be a different style of play or a bigger role. He also just hasn’t really worked out and there’s a chance he could get passed up depending on how things shake out. Gonna piggy back off this…he has a child. (I know everyone knows this already) Far away. Transfer closer to home night ease his mind a ton. I just hope he makes the best decision for himself and his family. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 If Bates is looking to move closer to home I bet KSU is on his list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 39 minutes ago, DC2345 said: It think he’s likely looking to move closer to home. Other factors could be a different style of play or a bigger role. He also just hasn’t really worked out and there’s a chance he could get passed up depending on how things shake out. 4 minutes ago, Coach Robby said: Gonna piggy back off this…he has a child. (I know everyone knows this already) Far away. Transfer closer to home night ease his mind a ton. I just hope he makes the best decision for himself and his family. Yeah, maybe that helps. For whatever reason, it hasn't worked out as we (I'll include Tamar here) thought it would. A change of scenery for him and the ability to move on for IU is quite possibly good for both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustinchops Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 Nah Bates is gone too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier4Life53 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: Does anybody worry about chemistry issues if we do (and I don't think we do) bring in 5 portal tranfers? We saw it to some extent with Ohio State and Illinois this year in the Big 10...And I think we saw it a lot the last few years at the one and done factories like Kentucky and Duke... I thought this article was interesting, talking about roster stability and success...It's Pac 12 related but also lays out some relevant points... Earlier I read on here that Coach Woodson has "been successful" in the portal...I'd say we're hitting .500...XJ and Kopp have been good, and Durr and Stewart (and I know he transferred to IU when Archie was the coach) weren't so good, but no one can say that everything was hunky dory on the chemistry front last year...3 of the Windy City 5 were transfers, and both Durr and Stewart had disciplinary measures taken on them... I'm just saying, that for every Kansas State story, there's an Oklahoma story to match... Sure, team chemistry is always a concern, even with a steady flow of your own recruits, but it’s probably more of a concern when you have to go to the portal to fill out your roster. Edited March 25, 2023 by Hoosier4Life53 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, Hoosier4Life53 said: Sure, sure team chemistry is always a concern, even with a steady flow of your own recruits, but it’s probably more of a concern when you have to go to the portal to fill out your roster. Probably the most overlooked aspect on here with all the names being thrown around... But I guarantee you not in Coach Woodson's book... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94hoosier Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 Tamar improved as the season went on the defensive side. Just needs to see some shots go in and get consistent. Not sure if he can but he has scores mentality. If he is back and continues to work he will get a chance to prove it. Guys like him and Gunn have a chance to be big time players. There will be more opportunities with TJD leaving and IF JHS leaves 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: Does anybody worry about chemistry issues if we do (and I don't think we do) bring in 5 portal tranfers? We saw it to some extent with Ohio State and Illinois this year in the Big 10...And I think we saw it a lot the last few years at the one and done factories like Kentucky and Duke... I thought this article was interesting, talking about roster stability and success...It's Pac 12 related but also lays out some relevant points... Earlier I read on here that Coach Woodson has "been successful" in the portal...I'd say we're hitting .500...XJ and Kopp have been good, and Durr and Stewart (and I know he transferred to IU when Archie was the coach) weren't so good, but no one can say that everything was hunky dory on the chemistry front last year...3 of the Windy City 5 were transfers, and both Durr and Stewart had disciplinary measures taken on them... I'm just saying, that for every Kansas State story, there's an Oklahoma story to match... It is a potential issue but it is almost worth the risk at this point. There are several guys on the team that have had years to show something and the growth just hasn't been there. If we want to truly compete next year, I think we have to roll the dice on some new guys...probably a bunch of new guys. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 3 hours ago, IUFLA said: Does anybody worry about chemistry issues if we do (and I don't think we do) bring in 5 portal tranfers? We saw it to some extent with Ohio State and Illinois this year in the Big 10...And I think we saw it a lot the last few years at the one and done factories like Kentucky and Duke... I thought this article was interesting, talking about roster stability and success...It's Pac 12 related but also lays out some relevant points... Earlier I read on here that Coach Woodson has "been successful" in the portal...I'd say we're hitting .500...XJ and Kopp have been good, and Durr and Stewart (and I know he transferred to IU when Archie was the coach) weren't so good, but no one can say that everything was hunky dory on the chemistry front last year...3 of the Windy City 5 were transfers, and both Durr and Stewart had disciplinary measures taken on them... I'm just saying, that for every Kansas State story, there's an Oklahoma story to match... I dont worry about the chemistry at all. These teams that are still playing are littered with transfers. We're going to have roster spots open and we're most likely losing 4 starters. Unless Woodson wants to take a big step back next season, which i doubt he does, IU is going to have to take in multiple transfers. If the current guys can't handle that, then maybe they're not the guys people are hoping they are. It's Woodson's job to make sure the pieces fit and the chemistry/culture works. From everything I've seen to this point, I trust him to manage that. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted March 25, 2023 Report Share Posted March 25, 2023 24 minutes ago, BGleas said: I dont worry about the chemistry at all. These teams that are still playing are littered with transfers. We're going to have roster spots open and we're most likely losing 4 starters. Unless Woodson wants to take a big step back next season, which i doubt he does, IU is going to have to take in multiple transfers. If the current guys can't handle that, then maybe they're not the guys people are hoping they are. It's Woodson's job to make sure the pieces fit and the chemistry/culture works. From everything I've seen to this point, I trust him to manage that. Kan.St. had 2 players on their team in July. Elite 8. Teams can get healthy quick in the portal. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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