MoyeCowbell Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 The original argument was that Post players were/are generally way better/more important defenders than their Perimeter counterparts. Yes, there are Post players that are absolutely dominant and can impact games, but the same can be true with Perimeter players. Our own VO being a somewhat recent example. He was a menace all over the court. While the NBA has trended the way of the Post player for the last 20 years (with a couple exceptions), the B1G, ACC & Pac-12 have been more "equal" in their selections between Post & Perimeter-oriented players. I bring that up simply to show that recognition (which to some degree correlates with impact) isn't so one-sided. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 33 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Ok, but you do know the ABA started in 1967 right? And you do know they had the 3 point line from their inception? And they did rely on college players to stock their teams. Those guys didn't just go from shooting mid range jumpers and layups to being good 3 point shooters overnight... As I said, certainly more shot volume now, but coaches had to adjust quickly. And I believe the original ABA 3 point line was 25 feet... I’m aware of the ABA, I’m not sure you are… They attempted 5 three point attempts per game in 1968. It’s an apples to oranges comparison for how you had to guard the perimeter, what spacing was like, etc. Or sure, you’re right, Quinn Buckner with his skill set from 1975 would have the exact same defensive impact today he did then. That’s what the original point was when I said perimeter defenders don’t impact the game as much as post defenders, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Seeking6 said: FYI gang. BTN Journey at 530 EST will feature TJD. Set the recorder or watch it live. Sorry gang. I was led to believe it was going to ball on TJD and not these other idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I’m aware of the ABA, I’m not sure you are… They attempted 5 three point attempts per game in 1968. It’s an apples to oranges comparison for how you had to guard the perimeter, what spacing was like, etc. Or sure, you’re right, Quinn Buckner with his skill set from 1975 would have the exact same defensive impact today he did then. That’s what the original point was when I said perimeter defenders don’t impact the game as much as post defenders, right? Your original point in our conversation was that they didn't guard the perimeter back then as they do now. My point was that even without the 3 point line you had plenty of guys that could shoot from outside, and you'd better be up on them, or it was going to be a long night... But it was just like today... You let some guys shoot, and others you didn't dare... Of course defenses have changed... But the point remains, you had to guard the perimeter... In my recollection, Buckner and Wilkerson usually picked up about half court... And believe me, they impacted the game plenty... As for your comment on the ABA, I stated earlier that in the early days, there wasn't the sheer volume of today. I actually saw the ABA and the 3 point line in its infancy...Of course the game has changed. But teams have had to guard the perimeter far longer than you want to think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 22 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: Sorry gang. I was led to believe it was going to ball on TJD and not these other idiots. Still worth the watch! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drroogh Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, rico said: DePaul/Creighton???? 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 Just now, Drroogh said: DePaul/Creighton???? Christmas Day and there was nothing else on in that time slot...on in the background while people were swilling egg nog 😉 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 9 minutes ago, Drroogh said: DePaul/Creighton???? Christmas Day slot...especially this year when half the country was under -30 degree temps and blizzard conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 8, 2023 Report Share Posted March 8, 2023 29 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Christmas Day and there was nothing else on in that time slot...on in the background while people were swilling egg nog 😉 23 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: Christmas Day slot...especially this year when half the country was under -30 degree temps and blizzard conditions. I think I remember hearing that Fox approached the two schools to get the game in that time slot for X-mas Day. I watched while sipping apple cider! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Bawls Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 Spring Break Ya'll 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, IUFLA said: Christmas Day and there was nothing else on in that time slot...on in the background while people were swilling egg nog 😉 I would need to be about 5 hours into the egg nog to watch a DePaul basketball game. Not even sure I would watch them if they were playing IU. Edited March 9, 2023 by 5fouls 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 2 hours ago, IUFLA said: Christmas Day and there was nothing else on in that time slot...on in the background while people were swilling egg nog 😉 Second in it’s time slot to the Yule log 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 22 minutes ago, 5fouls said: I would need to be about 5 hours into the egg nog to watch a DePaul basketball game. Not even sure I would watch them if they were playing IU. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 4 hours ago, IUFLA said: Your original point in our conversation was that they didn't guard the perimeter back then as they do now. My point was that even without the 3 point line you had plenty of guys that could shoot from outside, and you'd better be up on them, or it was going to be a long night... But it was just like today... You let some guys shoot, and others you didn't dare... Of course defenses have changed... But the point remains, you had to guard the perimeter... In my recollection, Buckner and Wilkerson usually picked up about half court... And believe me, they impacted the game plenty... As for your comment on the ABA, I stated earlier that in the early days, there wasn't the sheer volume of today. I actually saw the ABA and the 3 point line in its infancy...Of course the game has changed. But teams have had to guard the perimeter far longer than you want to think... No, my original point was a general statement that perimeter defenders don't have the same impact in basketball in the year 2023 that a big does. I'm not having a conversation with just you about this and you came in mid-stream. That was countered by saying.... but Buckner and Wilkerson. I still don't really get how those two could possibly be applicable to modern defense. I don't really know how you can possibly know what I think about how perimeter defense was 50 years ago or really what it had to do with the original point, which was Trayce Jackson-Davis should have been the defensive player of the year in part because he plays a more impactful defensive position than the two guys who won it. I do think defense as a whole is drastically different today than it was then for a myriad of reasons. The only real evidence anyone has posted in this thread was me posting a highlight video, which shows some pretty dagone weak perimeter defense, and me pointing out that even though the ABA had a three point line they were shooting 5 threes a game, which is drastically different how you'd guard that than today. At any rate, I think TJD should have won DPOTY and I'm more than happy to die on that hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: No, my original point was a general statement that perimeter defenders don't have the same impact in basketball in the year 2023 that a big does. I'm not having a conversation with just you about this and you came in mid-stream. That was countered by saying.... but Buckner and Wilkerson. I still don't really get how those two could possibly be applicable to modern defense. I don't really know how you can possibly know what I think about how perimeter defense was 50 years ago or really what it had to do with the original point, which was Trayce Jackson-Davis should have been the defensive player of the year in part because he plays a more impactful defensive position than the two guys who won it. I do think defense as a whole is drastically different today than it was then for a myriad of reasons. The only real evidence anyone has posted in this thread was me posting a highlight video, which shows some pretty dagone weak perimeter defense, and me pointing out that even though the ABA had a three point line they were shooting 5 threes a game, which is drastically different how you'd guard that than today. At any rate, I think TJD should have won DPOTY and I'm more than happy to die on that hill. Yep I was the guy that brought Buckner and Wilkerson into the conversation. And if you don’t know how they relate to modern defense, that’s on you. Absolutely what they did impacted games back then and the same principles are in place even more today. Pressure and pushing an offense farther away from the basket before they can start their sets. Taking precious seconds off the shot clock before they can start to run their offense. That’s how perimeter defense impacts a game and that constant pressure has as much or more impact in the course of a game than an interior defender’s presence. When the perimeter pressure takes a team out of what they want to do, they have made the interior defender’s job so much easier. That’s what Buckner and Wilkerson did and that’s why what they did is relevant to today’s game 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Steubenhoosier said: Yep I was the guy that brought Buckner and Wilkerson into the conversation. And if you don’t know how they relate to modern defense, that’s on you. Absolutely what they did impacted games back then and the same principles are in place even more today. Pressure and pushing an offense farther away from the basket before they can start their sets. Taking precious seconds off the shot clock before they can start to run their offense. That’s how perimeter defense impacts a game and that constant pressure has as much or more impact in the course of a game than an interior defender’s presence. When the perimeter pressure takes a team out of what they want to do, they have made the interior defender’s job so much easier. That’s what Buckner and Wilkerson did and that’s why what they did is relevant to today’s game Thank you, this is the first post of anyone actually trying to explain it. I understand this perspective and see the value in this in 1975; I don't necessarily agree that it's as valuable as what a big does but I certainly see the parallel point that it's impacting more than the guy they're guarding. More than anything though, I contend that perimeter defense is drastically different in 2023 than it was in 1975. The game has changed via rules, players skill sets, strategy, etc; I think we all agree on this, right? Assuming we do all agree on that, then we can all agree that the value of different skill sets changes as the game changes? I can neutralize a perimeter defender schematically (depending on your coverages) in ways I simply can't do to a big in today's game (unless I can go 5 out, but not many college teams can do that effectively enough on both ends). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Thank you, this is the first post of anyone actually trying to explain it. I understand this perspective and see the value in this in 1975; I don't necessarily agree that it's as valuable as what a big does but I certainly see the parallel point that it's impacting more than the guy they're guarding. More than anything though, I contend that perimeter defense is drastically different in 2023 than it was in 1975. The game has changed via rules, players skill sets, strategy, etc; I think we all agree on this, right? Assuming we do all agree on that, then we can all agree that the value of different skill sets changes as the game changes? I can neutralize a perimeter defender schematically (depending on your coverages) in ways I simply can't do to a big in today's game (unless I can go 5 out, but not many college teams can do that effectively enough on both ends). Think about today’s game and the dependence of many teams on the 3point shot. A strong perimeter defender who can take that away from a team, who fights over screens and pressures the shooters, pushing them farther from the 3point line…If you buy into analytics (like @IU Scottdoes) then you realize taking away 3points is more valuable than erasing the less valuable inside shots Edited March 9, 2023 by Steubenhoosier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 13 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: Think about today’s game and the dependence of many teams on the 3point shot. A strong perimeter defender who can take that away from a team, who fights over screens and pressures the shooters, pushing them farther from the 3point line…If you buy into analytics (like @IU Scottdoes) then you realize taking away 3points is more valuable than erasing the less valuable inside shots Sure, but one guy can't take away the entire perimeter like one guy can the entire paint. A guy like TJD allows all the perimeter defenders to close out more aggressively because they know TJD is behind them protecting the paint (and the most efficient shot is still a layup even with analytics). Contrast that with what we've seen teams to do a guy like Kawhi, which is about as good as any perimeter defender we've ever seen. I can put a guy like that on an island and play 4 on 4, and actually get some really good offense out of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledies22 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 9 hours ago, KoB2011 said: Sure, but one guy can't take away the entire perimeter like one guy can the entire paint. A guy like TJD allows all the perimeter defenders to close out more aggressively because they know TJD is behind them protecting the paint (and the most efficient shot is still a layup even with analytics). Contrast that with what we've seen teams to do a guy like Kawhi, which is about as good as any perimeter defender we've ever seen. I can put a guy like that on an island and play 4 on 4, and actually get some really good offense out of that. so what you are saying is, it's harder to guard the perimeter? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 12 minutes ago, ledies22 said: so what you are saying is, it's harder to guard the perimeter? I don't know that I'm saying one or the other is more difficult, I'm saying a big can impact the game defensively in ways a guard cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 46 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I don't know that I'm saying one or the other is more difficult, I'm saying a big can impact the game defensively in ways a guard cannot. Respectfully, yes of course Bigs and Perimeter players impact the game differently on the defensive side. Pretty obvious. And both tasks are equally difficult for numerous reasons. I think we can all agree on that. Saying that Bigs impact the game more than their Perimeter counterparts in the modern game simply because they are the last line of defense, doesn't offset the value and effectiveness of guards' defense from 14' and out. Truthfully, it comes down to schemes and basketball acumen. Along @Steubenhoosier 's examples, putting a strong Perimeter defensive force on the offense's lead ball-handler/facilitator can drastically impact the flow and trajectory of the game. Initiating offense takes longer, the shot clock is shorter, and great shots are replaced with good ones. My main point is that defensive disruption can happen all over the court and the impact of Bigs vs Perimeter Players isn't so one-sided in favor of those in the post. We're probably just going around in circles at this point, so I'll cease more arguments; but I do agree with you that TJD should've been DPOY this year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euroclydon Posted March 13, 2023 Report Share Posted March 13, 2023 IU's defense has been significantly impacted by XJs injury. X has a knack for being disruptive and getting in the other team's head to throw them off their game. He is not only a physical presence, he's also quick. But what some overlook is how his loss required Trey to pick up point guard duties. I know Trey plays hard but he hasn't been as effective defensively this season. Whether it's fatigue from having to do much more on offense or having to carry more of that defensive weight without X. You do not see Trey getting in the passing lanes like he did his first two seasons. You don't see him getting the steal and taking it to the basket nearly as often as in the past. The loss of X has had a huge ripple affect. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post IUFLA Posted March 14, 2023 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 14, 2023 Congratulations to a great player and a great kid...Thank you, Trayce! 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaHoosierFan Posted March 15, 2023 Report Share Posted March 15, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, IUFLA said: Congratulations to a great player and a great kid...Thank you, Trayce! Now if Purdue can lose in the first round and we run to the final 4, TJD will win the Nation Player of the Year Award. And Purdue would look stupid, that would be the best year ever. Edited March 15, 2023 by IowaHoosierFan 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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