IUBB 22/‘23

[Inequality]

2 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

This might not go over well, but…

TJD might be the very best player to ever don the candy stripes who led his team to nothing.

 I really feel for the guy because he has poured his heart and soul into the program. However, whatever the circumstances, it hasn’t translated into success. Likely one First Four win is all he has to show for his career. Not his fault, it just is. 
 

Would love for this team, led by TJD, to prove me wrong. Will be more than pleasantly surprised if that happens 

There has been some incredibly good talent come through since the coaching carousel started that I always felt was wasted.

My rant though: This marriage has to work. It’s hard to establish a culture with a rotating door of leadership.

That said, I can’t see that there is any improvement in anything at this point with the exception of a couple promising freshmen. One of whom could possibly leave for the NBA. The other who seems to be taken out of the flow completely and may say heck with this I’m outa here.

I wasn’t a fan of the hire to begin with. I felt it was a nostalgic hire that would fail. I mean, Woodson is a very likable guy and all but…meh.

The Matta addition was huge for me. It was like a safety net. Matta knows how to win college basketball games. He’s shown that. It felt like a smart move that could result in a backup plan if needed. There wouldn’t be the need for another search if Woodson didn’t pan out. It could be a smooth transition that may not hurt a recruiting cycle. 

Here we are as fans watching what seems to be another disappointing season. Time will only tell if things get turned around. I’m hopeful but not optimistic. Even with X and Race back, it’s the exact team that we watched last year add JHS. 

Why is it these other programs can transition to a new coaching staff almost seamlessly?

IU has had it pretty rough since RMK. Oh sure we have had players that gave IU a temporary facelift. Cody, Vic, Yogi, Hulls… those guys had a huge amount of talent and a relentless work ethic. They made Crean look better than he was.

It has been shown that a good coach can do more with less. That hasn’t been the case at this University since RMK. It just hasn't. Even the down years you could count on IU being in the tournament. Don’t bet against them either since that was usually when they played their best ball. IU was always at the very least competitive.

This team has enough talent to have tricked every sports beat writer coming into the season. So what gives?

There is still quite a bit of basketball to be played. I’m not sure the results are going to be any better. I suppose a light switch could go off and we see a different squad. My recent memory says otherwise. Usually once IU starts the downward trajectory, it’s pretty much over.

Folks show up here suggest over reaction by most of the board. Nah, it’s the product on the floor that’s causing the reaction. Rightfully so.

It’s unbelievable to me that this is what the donor had in mind when coughing up the Miller buyout. To get curb stomped at Penn St. Let Northwestern own us on our home court. That’s just theft.

I really want Woodson to work out just because he’s likable. But, if he isn’t going to put his foot up some tail and hold these guys accountable then I don’t expect anything to change in his favor. He’s been around the game his whole life. He has to know his stuff right? Looking at the team play there is something very wrong happening.

Long rant, sorry.

[Mike]

Looks like Duncomb won't be here next year .His grandma just said Woodson outcoached again.Said Woodson plays his choosen ones.

[D-BONE]

It's really pretty simple. If you lose three games against this caliber of opponent given the level of injuries, but your play looks engaged, competitive, and reasonably competent, that's one thing. 

What we have here is 2.5 games (portions of Iowa) of clearly not knowing what the hell you're supposed to do out there and at least 1.5 games (portions of Iowa) where your level of competition is questionable to non existent. 

And injuries aside, enough talent still on the roster to not look like the PSU fiasco, win or lose. We need a miracle Saturday.

Edited January 12, 2023 by D-BONE

[5fouls]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

Looks like Duncomb won't be here next year .His grandma just said Woodson outcoached again.Said Woodson plays his choosen ones.

Duncomb's grandma has a twitter account?  

[5fouls]

I'll use this opportunity to point out that, earlier in the year, many IU fans were pushing for Race to have a reduced role.  They got caught up with the promise/hype of a highly rated freshman who admittedly looked very good to start the season.  Race can't defend!  Race looks lost out there!  etc., etc. etc.  Well, you got what you wish for.

My point tto bringing that up is that any criticism on this board should be directed at the team/program as a whole.  From our couches, we really have no appreciation for the value and contributions of an individual player.  We're not at practice. We do know what the coaches have asked of each player.   We don't know what veterans the younger players listen to, etc.  

The board was flat wrong about Race's value, and we're finding that out in dramatic fashion. The TEAM sucks right now, but as a unit.  No reason to single out specific players.

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by 5fouls

[btownqb]

4 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll lose this opportunity to point out that, earlier in the year, many IU fans were pushing for Race to have a reduced role.  They got caught up with the promise/hype of a highly rated freshman who admittedly looked very good to start the season.  Race can't defend!  Race looks lost out there!  etc., etc. etc.  Well, you got what you wish for.

My point tto bringing that up is that any criticism on this board should be directed at the team/program as a whole.  From our couches, we really have no appreciation for the value and contributions of an individual player.  We're not at practice. We do know what the coaches have asked of each player.   We don't know what veterans the younger players listen to, etc.  

The board was flat wrong about Race's value, and we're finding that out in dramatic fashion. The TEAM sucks right now, but as a unit.  No reason to single out specific players.

 

 

 

You mean the way ppl did to XJ all last season? 

Pretty easy to tell why he stuck with XJ. It's also easy to tell why JG never got any of Race's mins and holy crap I'm glad he isn't playing the 3. Bates over Kopp was one of the complaints last year? Not a chance.  

Our skill level isn't good enough. That's amplified and exploited with no XJ. 

[Zuckerkorn]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

Looks like Duncomb won't be here next year .His grandma just said Woodson outcoached again.Said Woodson plays his choosen ones.

Granny is right.  That said, Duncomb ain't got "it".  He should have either taken the redshirt the staff suggested for last season or moved on.

[IUCrazy2]

14 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

This is also a fair point.

But I do think there is some level of onus on Woodson to make lemonade out of lemons the rest of the year. Probably not fair and he probably would have done some things differently in the offseason if he knew the injuries were coming, but we have to find a better way to make do with what we have now. Whatever this most recent attempt at adjusting to our misfortune wasn’t good, so let’s see how tonight goes. 

Narrator:  "Tonight went terribly."

[IUCrazy2]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

Looks like Duncomb won't be here next year .His grandma just said Woodson outcoached again.Said Woodson plays his choosen ones.

She isn't wrong but I don't think Duncomb has the self motivation for it to matter.  He is another symptom of the culture problem the program has outside of our coaching woes.

[tdhoosier]

Oh man. My Twitter feed….

Sometimes I wonder if CMW is watching the same game as the fans. Is he not telling the players they are over-helping? Are they not listening? Either way it’s a problem. Is this really a hard adjustment to make? 

As many have said. It’s not the losses. It’s not that black and white. It’s that we look like a team that hasn’t played D1 basketball before. These are just basic defensive principles. It’s not making lemonade out of lemons. It’s just squeezing out the juice. 

[5 championships]

3 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Oh man. My Twitter feed….

Sometimes I wonder if CMW is watching the same game as the fans. Is he not telling the players they are over-helping? Are they not listening? Either way it’s a problem. Is this really a hard adjustment to make? 

As many have said. It’s not the losses. It’s not that black and white. It’s that we look like a team that hasn’t played D1 basketball before. These are just basic defensive principles. It’s not making lemonade out of lemons. It’s just squeezing out the juice. 

But according to some it’s the players fault.. nothing to do with Woodson haha.. we just aren’t skilled enough to compete with northwestern and Penn state hahahaa

[tdhoosier]

24 minutes ago, 5 championships said:

But according to some it’s the players fault.. nothing to do with Woodson haha.. we just aren’t skilled enough to compete with northwestern and Penn state hahahaa

Brian Evans was saying that we could go 9 deep and NW still wouldn’t have a higher ranked player than us. 

And yes, rankings aren't the end all, be all. Sure, they’ll miss on some players (Lander a perfect example), but they generally are a pretty good barometer of talent. We can make fun of Kentucky and Cal for doing little with a lot, but when it comes to us it’s like: “hold on we can’t go there.” We can say the B1G hasn’t won a NC in 20 years because B1G teams don’t get those highly ranked players, but when it comes to us it’s like: “that insinuation is just unreasonable.”

Highly ranked players (depth with top 100 guys) should be a good thing. If the talent doesn’t result in wins, it’s either a lack of development or not getting the right players to fit your system. The troubling thing since last year is: I don’t know what Woody’s system is. So I can’t assess if we even have the right players. Can anybody define our system or what our identity is? Do the players know? Does Woody know?

Edited January 12, 2023 by tdhoosier

[5 championships]

9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Brian Evans was saying that we could go 9 deep and NW still wouldn’t have a higher ranked player than us. 

And yes, rankings aren't the end all, be all. Sure, they’ll miss on some players (Lander a perfect example), but they generally are a pretty good barometer of talent. We can make fun of Kentucky and Cal for doing little with a lot, but when it comes to us it’s like: “hold on we can’t go there.” We can say the B1G hasn’t won a NC in 20 years because B1G teams don’t get those highly ranked players, but when it comes to us it’s like: “that insinuation is just unreasonable.”

Highly ranked players (depth with top 100 guys) should be a good thing. If the talent doesn’t result in wins, it’s either a lack of development or not getting the right players to fit your system. The troubling thing since last year is: I don’t know what Woody’s system is. So I can’t assess if we even have the right players. Can anybody define our system or what our identity is? Do the players know? Does Woody know?

Agreed 

[13th&Jackson]

24 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Brian Evans was saying that we could go 9 deep and NW still wouldn’t have a higher ranked player than us. 

And yes, rankings aren't the end all, be all. Sure, they’ll miss on some players (Lander a perfect example), but they generally are a pretty good barometer of talent. We can make fun of Kentucky and Cal for doing little with a lot, but when it comes to us it’s like: “hold on we can’t go there.” We can say the B1G hasn’t won a NC in 20 years because B1G teams don’t get those highly ranked players, but when it comes to us it’s like: “that insinuation is just unreasonable.”

Highly ranked players (depth with top 100 guys) should be a good thing. If the talent doesn’t result in wins, it’s either a lack of development or not getting the right players to fit your system. The troubling thing since last year is: I don’t know what Woody’s system is. So I can’t assess if we even have the right players. Can anybody define our system or what our identity is? Do the players know? Does Woody know?

Omoruyi is the only Rutgers player who was a top 100 recruit (#51 I believe). The rest are mostly 3 stars. 

Wisconsin, Penn St, hardly top recruits. 

Woodson talks about our "young guys", although he acknowledged that JHS is the only freshman that plays heavy minutes. PU has an all freshman backcourt comprised of two undersized guys (a 3 star and barely 4 star). PSU was 8-22 from three against them, while PU matched them at 8-18. 

IU's problem isn't talent and it isn't youth. Maybe it's the wrong talent, but it's also coaching, scheme and obviously execution. 

[5fouls]

7 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Omoruyi is the only Rutgers player who was a top 100 recruit (#51 I believe). The rest are mostly 3 stars. 

Wisconsin, Penn St, hardly top recruits. 

Woodson talks about our "young guys", although he acknowledged that JHS is the only freshman that plays heavy minutes. PU has an all freshman backcourt comprised of two undersized guys (a 3 star and barely 4 star). PSU was 8-22 from three against them, while PU matched them at 8-18. 

IU's problem isn't talent and it isn't youth. Maybe it's the wrong talent, but it's also coaching, scheme and obviously execution. 

Whenever someone talks about our 'youth' I want to scream.  When Woodson does it, I get pissed off.

We're not a young team.  

[btownqb]

18 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Omoruyi is the only Rutgers player who was a top 100 recruit (#51 I believe). The rest are mostly 3 stars. 

Wisconsin, Penn St, hardly top recruits. 

Woodson talks about our "young guys", although he acknowledged that JHS is the only freshman that plays heavy minutes. PU has an all freshman backcourt comprised of two undersized guys (a 3 star and barely 4 star). PSU was 8-22 from three against them, while PU matched them at 8-18. 

IU's problem isn't talent and it isn't youth. Maybe it's the wrong talent, but it's also coaching, scheme and obviously execution. 

Yeah but, everyone here said Braden Smith wasn't good enough to play at IU!! 

Edited January 12, 2023 by btownqb

[IUCrazy2]

11 hours ago, BGleas said:

Yeah, his legacy is going to be a complicated one. The numbers will say top 10 player of all time, but hard to reconcile that he will most likely never finish above .500 in conference play and will have only won 1 tournament game over a 4 year career. 

When you get to the elite of IU basketball, winning matters and as you said not necessarily his fault but TJD has done very little winning. 

He is a 4 year Noah Vonleh.

[tdhoosier]

17 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Yeah but, everyone here said Braden Smith wasn't good enough to play at IU!! 

Would Woody be playing him? Honest question that I think the answer to would be: probably not. 

[kyhoosier29]

19 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Yeah but, everyone here said Braden Smith wasn't good enough to play at IU!! 

I mean I guess you’d have to go back and do the research (I’m not doing it), but I remember MOST saying they wanted him. Maybe I’m wrong. 

[13th&Jackson]

25 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Whenever someone talks about our 'youth' I want to scream.  When Woodson does it, I get pissed off.

We're not a young team.  

The Pacers have 10 players the same age or younger than Miller Kopp. They have three the same age or younger than Jordan Geronimo and Trey Galloway. Halliburton is 22, Mathurin is 20. 

[IUCrazy2]

1 minute ago, tdhoosier said:

Would Woody be playing him? Honest question that I think the answer to would be: probably not. 

He would be with Leal and Duncomb on the bench looking totally lost because he isn't a 1 on 1 guy.

JHS is the better player.  Everything JHS gets on our team is reflective of just his ability.  JHS would eat Braden Smith alive 1 on 1.  Smith is excelling because he is put into a system that has 5 pieces working to accomplish something as a team.  They are working multiple options to try and get a guy open or break down a defense. We have option 1.  Option 2. And Oh sh*t get up a shot.

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

Oh man. My Twitter feed….

Sometimes I wonder if CMW is watching the same game as the fans. Is he not telling the players they are over-helping? Are they not listening? Either way it’s a problem. Is this really a hard adjustment to make? 

As many have said. It’s not the losses. It’s not that black and white. It’s that we look like a team that hasn’t played D1 basketball before. These are just basic defensive principles. It’s not making lemonade out of lemons. It’s just squeezing out the juice. 

The Woodson quote that Osterman posted is the culture problem.  First 3 sentences is just God awful messaging to convey to your team.  Absolutely terrible.

[13th&Jackson]

 

11 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Would Woody be playing him? Honest question that I think the answer to would be: probably not. 

 

6 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

He would be with Leal and Duncomb on the bench looking totally lost because he isn't a 1 on 1 guy.

JHS is the better player.  Everything JHS gets on our team is reflective of just his ability.  JHS would eat Braden Smith alive 1 on 1.  Smith is excelling because he is put into a system that has 5 pieces working to accomplish something as a team.  They are working multiple options to try and get a guy open or break down a defense. We have option 1.  Option 2. And Oh sh*t get up a shot.

 

This is a good article about how Painter assembles a team and specifically addresses Smith. I don't get the comparison in the article to Kansas last year, but so be it. 

"When I got right down to it, it was like, man, why aren't we butting heads with the best guy at Davidson, the best player at Belmont, because I love watching those guys play," Painter said. "Rick Byrd and Bob McKillop, they're finding the best guys. And don't look at it like the best players in the MAC can't play in the Big Ten."

Braden Smith (196th in Class of 2022)

The fit: "Looked great on film. Instincts, a sixth sense on offense and defense. Leadership, competitiveness."

Painter needed another guard after losing (Jameel)

Brown. He fielded a lot of calls from people in Indianapolis who stumped for Smith. After watching five prospects in a three-day window, Painter put Smith, the lowest-ranked of the five, at the top of his list. He trusted his eyes, but he called coaches at all levels to confirm. Everything checked out. Smith was off the charts. He reminded Painter of guys who'd play for Byrd and McKillop. In fact, Smith was leaning toward committing to Belmont at the time.

"One college coach called him a basketball savant," Painter said. "Elite talent, elite feel, elite IQ. He just understands it."

 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/court-report-formula-that-won-kansas-a-national-title-might-also-help-purdue-win-2023-ncaa-tournament/

[Mike]

5 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

 

 

 

This is a good article about how Painter assembles a team and specifically addresses Smith. I don't get the comparison in the article to Kansas last year, but so be it. 

"When I got right down to it, it was like, man, why aren't we butting heads with the best guy at Davidson, the best player at Belmont, because I love watching those guys play," Painter said. "Rick Byrd and Bob McKillop, they're finding the best guys. And don't look at it like the best players in the MAC can't play in the Big Ten."

Braden Smith (196th in Class of 2022)

The fit: "Looked great on film. Instincts, a sixth sense on offense and defense. Leadership, competitiveness."

Painter needed another guard after losing (Jameel)

Brown. He fielded a lot of calls from people in Indianapolis who stumped for Smith. After watching five prospects in a three-day window, Painter put Smith, the lowest-ranked of the five, at the top of his list. He trusted his eyes, but he called coaches at all levels to confirm. Everything checked out. Smith was off the charts. He reminded Painter of guys who'd play for Byrd and McKillop. In fact, Smith was leaning toward committing to Belmont at the time.

"One college coach called him a basketball savant," Painter said. "Elite talent, elite feel, elite IQ. He just understands it."

 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/court-report-formula-that-won-kansas-a-national-title-might-also-help-purdue-win-2023-ncaa-tournament/

Guess we are stuck with what we have for three or four more years.Then start over again.Rough few years ahead before we are legitimate again.

[IUCrazy2]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

Guess we are stuck with what we have for three or four more years.Then start over again.Rough few years ahead before we are legitimate again.

No guarantee we will be legitimate with the next guy either.  We have been saying this same thing for 20+ years.

You have a BOT issue, a potential admin issue, and an AD issue before you even get to the coaches.  Indiana is an insular institution that is suffering from a lack of innovative and open thinking.  I don't want Dolson picking the next coach.

Edited January 12, 2023 by IUCrazy2