NIL, the AD, and where does the line get drawn (Hoosier Hysterics)

[Maedhros]

18 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Welp that answers enough for me. They knew this in May but chose the dead of summer to announce for the most attention. Weak. 

If anything, this should be a time to celebrate a win for the program. We have the staff in New York right now for Kel'el Ware, who was invited to the green room because he trusted Woodson to make him a first round pick. Yet these guys sat on this story so they could release this episode the day before. 

[Hippopotamo]

This situation feels complicated to me. On one hand, maybe it’s good the HH don’t have insider access to the program anymore. While they didn’t bother me too much, they could be extremely embarrassing at times and I felt uncomfortable feeling they had positions where they would represent the university and program in any semi-official capacity. Also, Woodson has every right to manage the program (and access to it) in any way he sees fit. I have zero problem with him cutting off the Hysterics if that’s what he wanted to do. 
 

However, after listening to the podcast yesterday I am still incredibly concerned about the leadership of our basketball program and athletic department. The cognitive dissonance Woodson shows by acting like he is untouchable gives me so little confidence that he can actually lead this team to winning anything these fans care about. It also seems odd to me that the media sphere has been so openly critical of Woodson. I get the hysterics are only telling their side of the story, but it seems like nobody in the media is surprised nor is anyone refuting anything they said in their podcast. 
 

In the end, all that matters is winning. If Woodson can win at a high level then none of this is a serious concern. However, I am extremely doubtful due to this man’s stubbornness and arrogance. 

[tdhoosier]

14 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Well, again, it's one side of the story...And of course they were going to cast Woody in the worst light they could...I'm sure we've all had friends/relatives/co-workers who have clashed, and the individual stories tend to be vastly different...

But Pankowski broke out all the favorite Mike Woodson's criticisms, and even threw the cover off of some new one...

Mispronounces names

Speaks in 3rd person

Has an ego (and I don't begrudge him that in basketball circles one bit especially when talking to podcast nimrods)

And I have never once heard Mike Woodson publicly say anything about racism or death threats until Eric Pankowski decided to make a private conversation public today...Passive aggressiveness at its finest... 

The whole interaction concerning Dolson is BS at it's best...Pankowski says he thought it "was to humiliate Dolson." LOL Yeah, buddy...Right...I'm sure Dolson has a different take on the whole issue...and it's not that of a narcissistic idiot who thinks he knows what's best for the program...

 

 

I get it.

But as @Hippopotamo said above: nobody is surprised or refuting it. 

Here's the thing though, some have had a narrative about Woody these last few years. We may be right, we may be wrong, we may fall somewhere in the middle. But more and more comes out to validate the narrative and/or perception some believe who are not 100% in Woody's camp. The strong off-season, while great, I fear is still camouflaging bigger issues in this program and the athletic department. 

Yesterday's podcast aside, some (not you) think his coaching style is inflexible. We've debated this over and over on the board, so you know the points of contention: declining defense, bad shooting, strange substitution patterns, not prioritizing holes talent gaps that need to be filled etc., etc. I've seen the comment shoving a square peg into a round hole on this board more than I care to remember. And i'm not just talking about last season. 

The above is doubled down in his post game comments. The throwing players under the bus. The blaming of execution rather than game planning time and time again. 

And I'm not sure he's a great unifier when he draws a line in the sand, in the front of a sold out crowd on senior night, between 'real fans' and fake fans who are critical about the fact we had a really crappy season. Now, I wasn't crying like Tonsoni about that, I just thought: 'that was a really stupid thing to do.....that's going to divide the fan base'. And it did. *I don't even know how this point is debatable*

These are actions and not hearsay. This isn't a 'campaign' pushed by podcasters.

So, my point is: are the reports about Woody thinking last season was a success or that he's achieved so much in basketball that he's above criticism or people questioning his motives really a surprise? That he thinks he's untouchable after getting $6 million from a few donors? For me, it isn't. That's why I tend to believe the reported comments, albeit with a grain of salt. 

 

[IUFLA]

59 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Here's the thing though, some have had a narrative about Woody these last few years. We may be right, we may be wrong, we may fall somewhere in the middle. But more and more comes out to validate the narrative and/or perception some believe who are not 100% in Woody's camp.

Who's validating it? The same people who were spreading it in the first place, that's who. The kids, past and present certainly don't. You can believe whoever you want but I tend to listen a bit more to people who are actually living it, rather than the Twitter Posse that have no accountability. We saw all the same wild rumors around here...lost the team... probably lose out...mass exodus coming...That, my friend, is the narrative they painted. How much of it came true? Nada...And now they're doing a little CYA because Woody got pissed about giving them access to the program only to hear they want him out...So he took it away...

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

So, my point is: are the reports about Woody thinking last season was a success or that he's achieved so much in basketball that he's above criticism or people questioning his motives really a surprise?

To be honest, I do think he's above the criticism of the deluded people who think they know more about building a program or basketball in general than a guy who has been living it his whole life. You honestly think the HH guys or Jeff Goodman know more about either of those things than Mike Woodson?

And while I probably wouldn't have used the word "successful" pointing to last year, it wasn't the abject failure that some have portrayed it. 

[tdhoosier]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

To be honest, I do think he's above the criticism of the deluded people who think they know more about building a program or basketball in general than a guy who has been living it his whole life. You honestly think the HH guys or Jeff Goodman know more about either of those things than Mike Woodson?

That's lazy because nobody is even insinuating the bolded....at least I'm not. But if you want to go there, of his peer group (actual coaches in the NBA and NCAA), Woody's accomplishments are average at best and unproven. He's not above criticism. 

Sure he may be able to prove it next season, or one day. But that will be the day when he's earned it. He's not earned anything yet. Definitely not immunity status, or being in charge of his own future at IU. 

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Who's validating it? The same people who were spreading it in the first place, that's who. The kids, past and present certainly don't. You can believe whoever you want but I tend to listen a bit more to people who are actually living it, rather than the Twitter Posse that have no accountability. We saw all the same wild rumors around here...lost the team... probably lose out...mass exodus coming...That, my friend, is the narrative they painted. How much of it came true? Nada...And now they're doing a little CYA because Woody got pissed about giving them access to the program only to hear they want him out...So he took it away...

The comments reported are ones that I tend to believe based on Woody's past actions and statements (which I laid out in the post you are replying to), not on what people have said about him.

If this was Juwan Howard or Brad Underwood, you'd be eating up all the red meat. I appreciate your fandom and loyalty to IU, but I think your bias is showing when you say Woody is above criticism. 

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

That's lazy because nobody is even insinuating the bolded....at least I'm not. But if you want to go there, of his peer group (actual coaches in the NBA and NCAA), Woody's accomplishments are average at best and unproven. He's not above criticism. 

Sure he may be able to prove it next season, or one day. But that will be the day when he's earned it. He's not earned anything yet. Definitely not immunity status, or being in charge of his own future at IU. 

The comments reported are ones that I tend to believe based on Woody's past actions and statements (which I laid out in the post you are replying to), not on what people have said about him.

If this was Juwan Howard or Brad Underwood, you'd be eating up all the red meat. I appreciate your fandom and loyalty to IU, but I think your bias is showing when you say Woody is above criticism. 

I can't believe you actually believe one ounce of what these idiots are saying. Have you ever been fired from a job because that Woodson s what happened here. When you get fired you might say some irrational things and stretch the truth.

I am not proud of this but everyone knows when you get fired you sign up for unemployment and they asked why you were fired. The company also has a chance to refute your view if things. One time I said I was fired because I kept asking for a raise and they got tired of me asking. That was true but I left out that I left the office and started badmouthing the company. I thought I was by myself but some other employee was in the break area. I never mentioned that but the company did but I denied that and won my unemployment. 

I just think these clowns got butthurt and went out and vented their frustration and didn't totally tell the whole truth.

[OGIUAndy]

18 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

That's lazy because nobody is even insinuating the bolded....at least I'm not. But if you want to go there, of his peer group (actual coaches in the NBA and NCAA), Woody's accomplishments are average at best and unproven. He's not above criticism. 

Sure he may be able to prove it next season, or one day. But that will be the day when he's earned it. He's not earned anything yet. Definitely not immunity status, or being in charge of his own future at IU. 

The comments reported are ones that I tend to believe based on Woody's past actions and statements (which I laid out in the post you are replying to), not on what people have said about him.

If this was Juwan Howard or Brad Underwood, you'd be eating up all the red meat. I appreciate your fandom and loyalty to IU, but I think your bias is showing when you say Woody is above criticism. 

You think Howard or Underwood telling a couple of podcasters to take a hike would be a story? I think that's the issue. Some people are just using this non story to once again share their criticisms of Woody that they have already expressed ad nauseam for months. I don't think anyone says you can't criticize him, but some of this is obviously personal. I quote other posters (on other boards):

a POS
a pr*ck
lazy
arrogant
egotistical 
god like complex

Like come on. This is all because he told podcasters who were campaigning to get him fired to get lost. And he will get fired if he doesn't win no matter what he said in front of Eric or Dolson. What do people expect Dolson to say in that moment? "No Woody, I will fire you when I want." Of all the criticisms of Woody, this is really a stretch. 
 

Edited Wednesday at 03:42 PM by OGIUAndy

[ledies22]

39 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

You think Howard or Underwood telling a couple of podcasters to take a hike would be a story? I think that's the issue. Some people are just using this non story to once again share their criticisms of Woody that they have already expressed ad nauseam for months. I don't think anyone says you can't criticize him, but some of this is obviously personal. I quote other posters (on other boards):

a POS
a pr*ck
lazy
arrogant
egotistical 
god like complex

Like come on. This is all because he told podcasters who were campaigning to get him fired to get lost. And he will get fired if he doesn't win no matter what he said in front of Eric or Dolson. What do people expect Dolson to say in that moment? "No Woody, I will fire you when I want." Of all the criticisms of Woody, this is really a stretch. 
 

That's kinda my thing. The latest parading by these buffoons that seem to be on a world tour of their smear campaign is all you need to know about them. If you want to be affiliated, be a part of the "inner circle", you can't do this kind of stuff. And they have showed who they are time and time again. There is a certain level of professionalism that comes with being affiliated, and even more so when you want to be in the "inner circle" (see Greg Doyle). These guys have an axe to grind. Like a baby, their candy got taken from them. They have nothing left other than their podcast, and this is a way to stay relevant. 

99 out of 100 you do not see these retaliatory actions. The 1... you don't want anywhere near your program anyway. So I bid them adieu, and have fun in your new 9-5's

Edited Wednesday at 04:20 PM by ledies22

[tdhoosier]

Ever since my very first post, I said HH was playing with fire. And have never once said Woody was in the wrong for cutting ties with them. I'm not sure why some think I'm mad at Woody for destroying this relationship...IDGAF...I said this about 10 times. 

However, I am saying, that because of his past actions and statements, the reported comments come as no surprise, thus, IMO are believable. And those comments (which I'm assuming are somewhat true) are concerning for the future of the program. If you think HH has straight up lied about those comments, has a bone to pick, whatever, then fine. I don't.

But if you've followed the program these last three years watching every game, watching Woodson interviews, watching postgame pressers (NOT listening to podcasts....just need to clarify that once again), do you realllllly think he didn't say those things...or something similar?

.....

What seems like another argument that is being conflated as one is the evil cabal of podcasters trying to get Woody fired because they hate him. I don't listen to every podcast so I don't know everybody's angles. The ones I do listen to want him to succeed, and react negatively to the results on the court. Predictable behavior of fans with a microphone. I don't like the creation of untrue rumors either, but some are painting with a very broad brush here with the accusations. Are we saying Assembly Call or HH has a double secret underground campaign to get Woodson fired? Do they react and/or talk about rumors? Yes. Do I think they create them? no. 

Plain and simple, its mostly bad play that turns up the heat on Woody. It's not showing improvement in key areas of the games that gets criticism. 

[HoosierDom]

There's too much in this thread for me to stay up, can someone sum-up what my summary misses?

- HH are clowns, though some disagree as to whether they're awful or just mildly cringe.

- They were super critical of Woody down the stretch of this year, so Woody cut them off from the program.

- It seems as though HH skims NIL money, though it's anybody's guess as to the truth and amount.

What am I missing?

[IU Scott]

Listening to the morning show on 107.5 this morning. One of the host work in Louisville for many years and said this kind of thing happened with Calapari and UL coaches. He said many times the UL firmer AD Jurich called in reporters many times to rip them a new one. We act like this situation with Woodson is something that hasn't happened before 

[DunkinDipo]

On 6/25/2024 at 2:46 PM, tdhoosier said:

I listened to it when it came out. And I remember some harsh stuff coming out - a lot of similar stuff that was said on this forum. They're not Woody's lap dogs, they can be critical. They can have whatever guest they want on...especially Brian Evans. I will try to go back and listen, but I probably agreed with 90% of the stuff they said at the time and still do... 

-Although I want him to be, I'm not sure he is the right man for the job.
-Complacency in the fanbase, lack of attendance and lack of donations is how coaches get fired. 
-If a coach doesn't like any of the 2 statements above then W-I-N. 

BUT I'm not arguing whether Woody had the right to cut ties with them....I pointedly said that above. 

...But to make him fly from California to reprimand him in person (not to mention after getting his daughters jobs and raising a lot of money for his players), creating a narrative in his mind that last season was successful, getting made for be called stubborn before calling himself stubborn and then just admonishing Dolson to his face in some show of power?

....it just doesn't look good. I'm always willing to hear the other side of the story too. I'm actually most curious to know what Dolson really thinks. 

I'd love to know what Dolson thinks too. Can we all agree that Dolson is merely a puppet and has little to no power right now? Which is pretty sad. 

[tdhoosier]

4 minutes ago, DunkinDipo said:

I'd love to know what Dolson thinks too. Can we all agree that Dolson is merely a puppet and has little to no power right now? Which is pretty sad. 

sigh....since you asked. I wouldn't recommend expanding that tweet unless you want to see how he crossed the that line and then lit it on fire. 

 

 

 

[Rev_AK]

Don’t know if the Rick Bozich article has been shared/ discussed already, but he weighs in in a pretty insightful way- basically that Iu is always shooting itself in the foot. 
In the “hot take” ( which I loathe) culture we live in, people have forgotten that sometimes things do not have to be mutually exclusive of one another, and that two things can be true at the same time. We see signs of CMW’s personality behind closed doors all around, and these things did not surprise me. However, never been a “true fan” of HH and i see them as goofy and at times cringy. (Especially the Wat Shot re creation) That being said, doesn’t mean I don’t believe them.

As I said back in the Spring, these season is a referendum on CMW, and I don’t think this will move the needle either way, but it is good entertainment during the summer doldrums.

[Seeking6]

29 minutes ago, Rev_AK said:

Don’t know if the Rick Bozich article has been shared/ discussed already, but he weighs in in a pretty insightful way- basically that Iu is always shooting itself in the foot. 
In the “hot take” ( which I loathe) culture we live in, people have forgotten that sometimes things do not have to be mutually exclusive of one another, and that two things can be true at the same time. We see signs of CMW’s personality behind closed doors all around, and these things did not surprise me. However, never been a “true fan” of HH and i see them as goofy and at times cringy. (Especially the Wat Shot re creation) That being said, doesn’t mean I don’t believe them.

As I said back in the Spring, these season is a referendum on CMW, and I don’t think this will move the needle either way, but it is good entertainment during the summer doldrums.

I think plenty of the replies in Rick's tweet represent the majority (90%+) of what people think of HH and that maybe Rick should walk that tweet back...

[IUCrazy2]

5 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Who's validating it? The same people who were spreading it in the first place, that's who. The kids, past and present certainly don't. You can believe whoever you want but I tend to listen a bit more to people who are actually living it, rather than the Twitter Posse that have no accountability. We saw all the same wild rumors around here...lost the team... probably lose out...mass exodus coming...That, my friend, is the narrative they painted. How much of it came true? Nada...And now they're doing a little CYA because Woody got pissed about giving them access to the program only to hear they want him out...So he took it away...

To be honest, I do think he's above the criticism of the deluded people who think they know more about building a program or basketball in general than a guy who has been living it his whole life. You honestly think the HH guys or Jeff Goodman know more about either of those things than Mike Woodson?

And while I probably wouldn't have used the word "successful" pointing to last year, it wasn't the abject failure that some have portrayed it. 

For a school that pumps the amount of money and resources that Indiana does into its men's basketball program, any year that doesn't at the very least end in the appearance in a 68 team tournament should be viewed as an abject failure.  And I don't care about recent history.  That was all failure too.  Failure that got guys fired.  Failure that occurred without being able to truly $$$compete$$$ with the big name schools in recruiting.  Something Woodson has no excuse for.

Woodson is an @$$.  You can be that as a coach as long as you are winning.  We fired Bob Knight for being an @$$ when the wins no longer justified putting up with it.  I am in the camp that doesn't much like Mike anymore.  I am ready for him to go.  If he wins, I can tolerate him, but 20-12 isn't enough for me personally to want to keep him around.

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

sigh....since you asked. I wouldn't recommend expanding that tweet unless you want to see how he crossed the that line and then lit it on fire. 

 

 

 

Not sure I understand what you're saying here...

[tdhoosier]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Not sure I understand what you're saying here...

click the 'read more' (or don't)

[IUFLA]

4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

click the 'read more' (or don't)

Still not making the connection between what @DunkinDipo posted and the tweet...

[IUFLA]

31 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

For a school that pumps the amount of money and resources that Indiana does into its men's basketball program, any year that doesn't at the very least end in the appearance in a 68 team tournament should be viewed as an abject failure.  And I don't care about recent history.  That was all failure too.  Failure that got guys fired.  Failure that occurred without being able to truly $$$compete$$$ with the big name schools in recruiting.  Something Woodson has no excuse for.

Woodson is an @$$.  You can be that as a coach as long as you are winning.  We fired Bob Knight for being an @$$ when the wins no longer justified putting up with it.  I am in the camp that doesn't much like Mike anymore.  I am ready for him to go.  If he wins, I can tolerate him, but 20-12 isn't enough for me personally to want to keep him around.

Then don't spend money on it, and don't watch it...That's your prerogative...

But Mike Woodson will be the coach next year...

[IUCrazy2]

4 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Listening to the morning show on 107.5 this morning. One of the host work in Louisville for many years and said this kind of thing happened with Calapari and UL coaches. He said many times the UL firmer AD Jurich called in reporters many times to rip them a new one. We act like this situation with Woodson is something that hasn't happened before 

To be succinct, when you are an asshole and are seen as underperforming expectations, both of those things tend to be enhancers of the other.  

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Then don't spend money on it, and don't watch it...That's your prerogative...

But Mike Woodson will be the coach next year...

No, I can watch it and hope Mike Woodson pulls a rabbit out of a hat and if he doesn't and gets fired, well, I at least got that going for me too.

I support the program, it is bigger than one person.  

Edited Wednesday at 09:21 PM by IUCrazy2

[Tom White]

2 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

sigh....since you asked. I wouldn't recommend expanding that tweet unless you want to see how he crossed the that line and then lit it on fire. 

 

 

 

Why do people even bother listening to, or reading, anything from Dakich. The guy has been such a tool for so long.

[IU Scott]

16 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Still not making the connection between what @DunkinDipo posted and the tweet...

Talking about DD saying parents of white players should question whether to send their sons to play for Woodson 

[IUFLA]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Talking about DD saying parents of white players should question whether to send their sons to play for Woodson 

This?

"- also why white basketball players considering #iubb should have a long, serious talk with Woodson and staff"

It's an idiotic take from, well, an idiot...But I still fail to see the connection to Dolson and thinking he's a "puppet" (which I totally disagree with)...