IU Scott Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) I remember when the Reds drafted Mike Leake and he didn't ever pitch in the minors. He didn't pitch after getting drafted until the next season started Edited July 10, 2023 by IU Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 Bryce Spalding@bryce_spalding·44mWith Joey Vottos next HR, he will become the 16th player in MLB history with 350+ HR, 2,000+ hits and an on base percentage above .400.Legend. #Reds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) On 7/9/2023 at 9:35 AM, btownqb said: Ohtanin is the best player since.... ever?  After looking around a bit, I'll say this... In my estimation, Ruth is the greatest player ever to play the game, and Ohtani has quite a bit of catching up to do career wise... But, Ruth only had 2 seasons where he pitched 100+ innings, and had over 300 plate appearences...1918 and 1919 (Ohtani has dome it 3 times). The Babe did the lead the league in homers with 11 (coming out of the dead ball ere) in 1918 and that was a significant feat... But this season, if Ohtani can keep up his current pace (on track to have 58 HRs and 14 wins as a pitcher) would be one for the ages and better than any one season that The Bambino accomplished performing both duties... It's uncertain if The Babe could have produced a similar season had the Yankees used him as a pitcher every 4th day (by the trend of the time) along with being their every day right fielder, but knowing the Babe was a man prone to excess in his personal life and the physical shape he kept his body in as a result, it's hard to imagine...He was a freak of nature, though...You never know... Edited July 10, 2023 by IUFLA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted July 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, IUFLA said: After looking around a bit, I'll say this... In my estimation, Ruth is the greatest player ever to play the game, and Ohtani has quite a bit of catching up to do career wise... But, Ruth only had 2 seasons where he pitched 100+ innings, and had over 300 plate appearences...1918 and 1919 (Ohtani has dome it 3 times). The Babe did the lead the league in homers with 11 (coming out of the dead ball ere) in 1918 and that was a significant feat... But this season, if Ohtani can keep up his current pace (on track to have 58 HRs and 14 wins as a pitcher) would be one for the ages and better than any one season that The Bambino accomplished performing both duties... It's uncertain if The Babe could have produced a similar season had the Yankees used him as a pitcher every 4th day (by the trend of the time) along with being their every day right fielder, but knowing the Babe was a man prone to excess in his personal life and the physical shape he kept his body in as a result, it's hard to imagine...He was a freak of nature, though...You never know... You hit on a very important point. Ruth would gave had to pitch AND play the field the other days. Ohtani pitches. Ohtani hits. Ohtani never plays the field. I'll never be convinced that doesnt matter a great deal. As far as 'greatest season' is concerned. Hitting 58 homers in a season where someone else might hit 50 versus hitting 54 homers when no other TEAM does that, and I give the edge to the latter, regardless of the number of pitching wins. There is a lot of recency bias with Ohtani. Ruth was much more unique and ahead of his time than Ohtani. Edited July 10, 2023 by 5fouls 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, 5fouls said: You hit on a very important point. Ruth would gave had to pitch AND play the field the other days. Ohtani pitches. Ohtani hits. Ohtani never plays the field. I'll never be convinced that doesnt matter a great deal. As far as 'greatest season' is concerned. Hitting 58 homers in a season where someone else might hit 50 versus hitting 54 homers when no other TEAM does that, and I give the edge to the latter, regardless of the number of pitching wins. There is a lot of recency bias with Ohtani. Ruth was much more unique and ahead of his time than Ohtani. If Ruth had only had to DH, he'd have had more of a chance to equal what Ohtani is doing today...That's for certain...But, I was simply going by the rules of the time... And the "greatest season" was simply comparing apples to apples...Hitting AND pitching in the same season...There's no doubt Ruth's feat of out homering every team (in the AL...In the NL he out homered every team except the Phillies) is on a whole different level... That, along with Wilt Chamberlain averaging 50 PPG are the two most astonishing feats in sports history as far as I'm concerned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 27 minutes ago, 5fouls said: You hit on a very important point. Ruth would gave had to pitch AND play the field the other days. Ohtani pitches. Ohtani hits. Ohtani never plays the field. I'll never be convinced that doesnt matter a great deal. As far as 'greatest season' is concerned. Hitting 58 homers in a season where someone else might hit 50 versus hitting 54 homers when no other TEAM does that, and I give the edge to the latter, regardless of the number of pitching wins. There is a lot of recency bias with Ohtani. Ruth was much more unique and ahead of his time than Ohtani. This should mean very little. Ohtani shouldn't be penalized for there being poor power hitters pre WW2. You've found two advantages for Othani and negated them for reasons outside of his control. The fact Ruth wasn't, or won't be nearly as projected of as an accomplished pitcher DOES matter. A lot.  I'll throw this in.. Shohei is a significantly better overall athlete. Athletes 100 years apart.. big advantage for Shohei. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 50 minutes ago, IUFLA said: After looking around a bit, I'll say this... In my estimation, Ruth is the greatest player ever to play the game, and Ohtani has quite a bit of catching up to do career wise... But, Ruth only had 2 seasons where he pitched 100+ innings, and had over 300 plate appearences...1918 and 1919 (Ohtani has dome it 3 times). The Babe did the lead the league in homers with 11 (coming out of the dead ball ere) in 1918 and that was a significant feat... But this season, if Ohtani can keep up his current pace (on track to have 58 HRs and 14 wins as a pitcher) would be one for the ages and better than any one season that The Bambino accomplished performing both duties... It's uncertain if The Babe could have produced a similar season had the Yankees used him as a pitcher every 4th day (by the trend of the time) along with being their every day right fielder, but knowing the Babe was a man prone to excess in his personal life and the physical shape he kept his body in as a result, it's hard to imagine...He was a freak of nature, though...You never know... Right. There's the discussion... what of Shohei puts this type of year up for the next decade.. 😳😳😳 His pitching Ws aren't the end all be all for me though... his Ks per 9, hits per 9, WHIP, and ERA are just silly good as a pitcher.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 hours ago, IU Scott said: I remember when the Reds drafted Mike Leave and he didn't ever pitch in the minors. He didn't pitch after getting drafted until the next season started Leake had thrown 142 innings that college season. Floyd has thrown 91. And only threw a total of 175 innings in college. Leake threw 390 college innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited)  Tides are turning. Adding UCLA, USC boosts the baseball profile a lot. B12 only having one is wild.  Edited July 10, 2023 by btownqb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 41 minutes ago, btownqb said: This should mean very little. Ohtani shouldn't be penalized for there being poor power hitters pre WW2. You've found two advantages for Othani and negated them for reasons outside of his control. The fact Ruth wasn't, or won't be nearly as projected of as an accomplished pitcher DOES matter. A lot.  I'll throw this in.. Shohei is a significantly better overall athlete. Athletes 100 years apart.. big advantage for Shohei. If Ohtani falls "apart" here in the next few years you are the first guy I will call. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, btownqb said: The fact Ruth wasn't, or won't be nearly as projected of as an accomplished pitcher DOES matter. A lot.  I'm not sure what you mean here, but Ruth was thought to be one of the best left handers in all baseball when he pitched full time...  20 minutes ago, btownqb said: Ohtani shouldn't be penalized for there being poor power hitters pre WW2. You've found two advantages for Othani and negated them for reasons outside of his control. But you use a stat, WHIP, that when Ruth played would be skewed...The year Ruth hit the 54 HRs @5fouls talked about, the AL overall BA was .282...Last year, the AL was at .243...Ruth's WHIP in that era when players stuck out far less often and hit for much higher averages is 1.159...Ohtani's is 1.091...Ohtani's lifetime ERA is 3.04, Ruth's is 2.28... It's difficult to compare eras, but in Ruth's day teams scored more runs, hit for a higer average, and struck out far less...So saying that Ohtani is a more accomplished pitcher is debatable...Even in the years Ruth did both... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, rico said: If Ohtani falls "apart" here in the next few years you are the first guy I will call. Why would that be? I literally said... "lets talk about this in a decade".. But uh... is that something you think is likely? Him falling apart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: I'm not sure what you mean here, but Ruth was thought to be one of the best left handers in all baseball when he pitched full time...  But you use a stat, WHIP, that when Ruth played would be skewed...The year Ruth hit the 54 HRs @5fouls talked about, the AL overall BA was .282...Last year, the AL was at .243...Ruth's WHIP in that era when players stuck out far less often and hit for much higher averages is 1.159...Ohtani's is 1.091...Ohtani's lifetime ERA is 3.04, Ruth's is 2.28... It's difficult to compare eras, but in Ruth's day teams scored more runs, hit for a higer average, and struck out far less...So saying that Ohtani is a more accomplished pitcher is debatable...Even in the years Ruth did both... It won't be a decade from now. It won't be even be close pitching wise, now.. 5s comments about why he stopped pitching to focus on hitting make a lot of sense to me. But.. the fact of the matter.. Ruth was a starter for 4.5 years.. Shohei has been a starter for 3 years... Later on if that is like Shohei has been a starter for 12-13 years...yeah thats going to be a big time feather in Shohei's cap.. if they're still comparable #s wise, and really the reason "WHY" Ruth didn't pitch anymore isnt all that relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, btownqb said: Why would that be? I literally said... "lets talk about this in a decade".. But uh... is that something you think is likely? Him falling apart? I'm not going to speak for @rico, but being that Ohtani is close to 30 now, it's hard to envision him keeping up that pace for 5 year, much less a decade... Edited July 10, 2023 by IUFLA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 But ok.. Shohei ends up the 2nd best player ever... ahhh what a bum. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, btownqb said:  But uh... is that something you think is likely? Him falling apart? He pitches doesn't he? The odds say he gets hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 Just now, IUFLA said: I'm not going to speak for @rico, but being that Ohtani is colse to 30 now, it's hard to envision him keeping up that pace for 5 year, much less a decade... Well hes already done it for 4 years.. And Ruth hit 41 bombs as a 37 year old.. Shohei can easily do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 Just now, rico said: He pitches doesn't he? The odds say he gets hurt. What do I have to do with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, btownqb said: But ok.. Shohei ends up the 2nd best player ever... ahhh what a bum. 🤣 Your opinion and pure speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, rico said: Your opinion and pure speculation. Ok so like the 3rd? 4th? Best ever... ahhhhh!!! I can't imagine what three will end up in front of him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 I'd assume at least half the pitchers Ruth was taking swings off of wouldn't sniff Triple A now, though. That's my whole issue. Ruth hit bombs off carpenters, blacksmiths, and common folk. Shohei takes today's pitching deep. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, btownqb said: Well hes already done it for 4 years.. And Ruth hit 41 bombs as a 37 year old.. Shohei can easily do that. I guess we'll see...Interesting discussion, though... 4 minutes ago, btownqb said: But ok.. Shohei ends up the 2nd best player ever... ahhh what a bum. 🤣 Well, he may be the best pitcher/hitter combo ever, but saying 2nd greatest ever, I'd give pushback there...He's a DH (did I ever tell you how much I hate the DH?  ) so I tend to rate the guys who play the field a tad higher as far as everyday players...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I guess we'll see...Interesting discussion, though... Well, he may be the best pitcher/hitter combo ever, but saying 2nd greatest ever, I'd give pushback there...He's a DH (did I ever tell you how much I hate the DH?  ) so I tend to rate the guys who play the field a tad higher as far as everyday players...... I don't. DH is my favorite addition to baseball, like ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, btownqb said: I'd assume at least half the pitchers Ruth was taking swings off of wouldn't sniff Triple A now, though. That's my whole issue. Ruth hit bombs off carpenters, blacksmiths, and common folk. Shohei takes today's pitching deep. Today's pitching is pretty weak if you ask me. It is to diluted and there are plenty of guys in the majors that shouldn't even sniff the major league. In just the last two weeks the Reds have brought up guys for a couple of days and then DFA them the next day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 10, 2023 Report Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, btownqb said: I'd assume at least half the pitchers Ruth was taking swings off of wouldn't sniff Triple A now, though. That's my whole issue. Ruth hit bombs off carpenters, blacksmiths, and common folk. Shohei takes today's pitching deep. Come on...that's unfair...A lot of those guys HAD to have a second vocation in the off season because of the shitty pay for baseball players at the time... You only had 8 teams in a league, so the talent was less diluted...Ruth faced 13 HoF pitchers in his career... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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