5fouls

4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

2,400 dead soldiers and $2.4 trillion spent in Afghanistan? All of the civil liberty violations in the Patriot Act? Yes, we needed to act but not go that far. 

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic.  Act with strength or it will happen again.  Exactly what parts of the Patriot Act do you feel violate your civil liberties?

18 minutes ago, FritzIam4IU said:

I'm thinking both. I still can't see how we are going to be able to remove the stay at home directives anytime soon...

One thing that bothers me is that I think there is a delay in reporting some of the numbers.  Maybe some counties are not reporting every day.  With the technology we have available, that should not happen.

1 minute ago, FritzIam4IU said:

Yesterday had the most confirmed cases reported in IN of outbreak at 611...

https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/

Makes you wonder if it is more access to testing or are people not self-distancing properly.

10 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

 over-reaction to 9/11 

It would have been impossible to overreact to 9/11.  

In times like these, I don't think bringing out the ban hammer for small violations of the board is the right thing to do.  We all have our beliefs and in trying times, some of our frustrations are going to come out.  

I do think, however, that everyone needs to understand that in this fight, we are all Americans.  No one has the answers.  When a state or government leader is trying to do what they think is right, I have no issues with it, even if it was not something I would have done.  Where I have issues is when things unrelated to the virus bleed into the decision making.  We don't need that now, but unfortunately, there are opportunists all too willing to take advantage of it. 

24 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Holcomb is contemplating loosening restrictions next week, but state officials are now saying cases aren't expected to peak until early May. This coupled with the fact that people with symptoms are still being denied tests. I can't imagine he'll go through with that plan because to a certain degree we are still flying blind. That's a huge amount of liability to take on. These governors are in tough positions, no doubt. On one side people need to work. On another side, if he opens up and cases spike and he'll be held responsible. On another-other side, if he opens up and cases spike then we have to start are social distancing all over again, thus, further delaying the opening up of the state. AND then to throw another stick on the fire...Governors have to also consider how their decisions affect their neighboring states. Damn...glad I'm not a Governor. 

Numbers spiked today in Indiana.   Going to be a tough sell to open any time soon.

1 hour ago, rico said:

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoenix-metro/central-phoenix/first-arizona-covid-19-patient-treated-with-ecmo-therapy-survives-honorhealth-reports/

Experimental treatments that show promise should be used as often as possible.  It's like if you are on the third floor of a burning building with the only option to be to jump.  Sure the jump may kill or maim you, but if the alternative is being consumed by fire, you take the chance.  We, as a society, are much to slow to embrace the unknown.

Well, if universities cancel in person classes until 2021, that's not good news for college sports.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/us/university-may-cancel-classes-fall-2021-trnd/index.html

7 hours ago, PhinithreeMagic said:

Updated version with Lander/Duncomb past their freshman years. 

 

Now, if we could get this version in the first post in the thread, that would be perfect.

Check your bank account.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/indiana-volunteer-firefighter-waiting-for-1700-stimulus-payment-sees-millions-in-his-bank-account

One of the statistics I find most meaningful that is available is number of deaths per 1 million people.  So, while the U.S. may have the most total deaths, that does not mean we were the least prepared when you consider we have 5-6 times more people than most other countries.

So, throwing out the obviously under-reported death totals from China and Russia, here are some comparative numbers when looking at deaths per 1 million people.  The U.S. compares favorably with countries you would consider to be our peers.

Spain - 377

Italy - 338

Belgium - 337

France - 229

United Kingdom - 167

The Netherlands - 165

Switzerland - 131

Sweden - 91

U.S. - 71

Austria - 41

Germany - 36

Canada - 20

Australia - 2 (benefiting from being in the Southern Hemisphere (summertime) and being an island nation.

I'm not interested in re-opening things until the timing is right.  If we re-open too early and end up right back where we were, then the damage to the economy is twice as bad.  No, the stimulus plan does not solve everything, but let's give it a chance to do what it's intended to do and continue with social distancing until the time is right to open back up.

1 minute ago, Muckraker said:

That's exactly my point. 

But that still is not a bad thing, so his original point about it being a silver lining is valid.

2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I'm not ready to rehash the whole chloroquine debate, but in news related to this we are seeing the mobilization of the global scientific community like we never have before. Many have stopped what they were doing and using their expertise to look for a cure. I just read about an anti-parasitic drug called Ivermectin; it has shown to stop COVID19 in its tracks within 24-48 hours. Of course this was done in lab settings and they need to test in humans. Who knows if it will work but while most of the noise is about chloroquine, there are other promising trials going on. And because of this huge mobilization it's very possible treatments for other viruses may be found on accident. It's very unlikely but wouldn't it be crazy if all of this research accidentally stumbles on better treatments for the common cold or seasonal flu? ...Just something positive to think about. 

Agreed.  Not saying Hydrpxychloroquine is the long term answer.  It was the one thing we had at the time showing some promise.

If the lab test you mention above is true, that needs to be tested on humans asap.

38 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

My friend is a pharmacist in TN and I heard directly from him that he was having a hard time securing chlorquine for his patients. It wasn't a rumor in his particular case. 

I believe it.  Several factors could be involved, not just an actual shortage of the drug.  

1 minute ago, Lostin76 said:

That's one of them. They had two dosage levels. And I'm not blaming a drug or anything. I'm also not desperately clinging to a questionable treatment. I sincerely hope it can offer relief, but not at the expense of unnecessary death. I think I've mentioned that our department is doing a big clinical trial with it as a prophylaxis for exposed cases. We want it to work, but there is not enough data. And the real data we have so far? It's not great. 

Roughly half the study participants were given a dose of 450 milligrams of chloroquine twice daily for five days, while the rest were prescribed a higher dose of 600 milligrams for 10 days. Within three days, researchers started noticing heart arrhythmias in patients taking the higher dose. By the sixth day of treatment, 11 patients had died, leading to an immediate end to the high-dose segment of the trial.

10 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

A second clinical trial has now been stopped early b/c of cardiac deaths from hydroxychloroquine.

Also this from a doctor: "Patients with lupus, arthritis, other conditions are *already* on hydroxychloroquine. And we are diagnosing them with covid19 LEFT AND RIGHT "

Is the trial you are referencing the one in Brazil where they gave the patients higher than recommended dosage?  Maybe, just maybe, if they had stuck within the guidelines of drug, the people would have lived.  Don't blame the drug when it's misused.

In fact, according to the story, it's not even the same drug.  The New York Times is just presenting it that way.  It's a closely related drug, chloroquine without the 'hydroxy'.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html

4 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Banning hydroxychloroquine? 

Is/Was 100% political and irresponsible beyond belief. 

Even if it only saves 1 in 10 that you give it to.  As long as it is not harming the other 9 (and absolutely nothing in the 70 years it's been in use suggests it would), then saving that 1 life makes it worthwhile. 

Throw in the fact that some tried to spread a false rumor that there would not be enough supply for those who needed it for lupus or arthritis,  and it's evident that some are not acting on the interest of saving lives.  And, that's disgusting.

2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I completely understand that as more numbers come in the actual death rate is going to change. Right now a death rate of 1% seems to be the general consensus, so whether it goes up to 1.5% or down to .7%, either way it's pretty deadly. Look, we had it killing 10 people/day in the third week of March and by April 7th it surpassed Heart Disease as the number 1 cause of death on April 7th when it killed over 1,800 people and it's been climbing since. And that's with a majority of deaths coming from just one city.  I agree we can't be 100% accurate right now when stating the actual death rate. But when people say it's not as deadly as we think when comparing it to the seasonal flu or other 'common viruses', and then use that bit of inaccurate info to propagate a conspiracy theory about population control then I don't agree with their general premise.

I don't think it's population control either.  But, I do get tired of people trying to criticize how the U.S. responded.  Every country in the world was delayed in responding because of how China tried to cover this up.  That's a fact.

23 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

And we are experiencing higher mortality rates than the flu. It’s 10x more deadly. 

It didn’t have to be this way. If our elected officials and federal agencies acted on this back in January when they were getting numerous warnings; the social distancing wouldn’t have to be on this scale. If they weren’t ‘blind’ to the virus and had a way to test/track it sooner, then they could have shut specific cities where clusters were present, rather than the whole country. They had 2 months to prepare, but didn’t act until it was too late. This is going to go down in history as one of the most epic failures. Nothing like a good conspiracy theory about ‘population control’ to distract us from this very fact. 

I don't think we can even remotely attach an accurate mortality rate to this.  The fact that many people who have the virus never show symptoms or have very minor symptoms separates it from the flu.  You know when you have the flu, so it is much easier to attach numbers to it/  That's not the case here.

As far as the U.S., and, for that matter, the world's reaction to the virus, we need to back the blame game up just a little bit.  In hindsight, was it slower than it needed to be?  Yes.  That's an easy call in hindsight.  But, when you have China doing everything possible to cover this up, and WHO making statements in mid to late January that there is no evidence of human to human transmission, what exactly should we expect? 

It's pretty doggone hard to make the 'right' decisions when 90% of the information you need is being withheld.  Or, even worse, you're given false and misleading information.    

Interesting story.  Models predict that yesterday's death total may have been the peak, but they also predict the following based on when social distancing restrictions are lifted.

• If lifted at the end of May, overall death toll is expected to be around 60,000
• If lifted on May 1st, there is a risk of a rebound back to where we are now  in July which could lead to an overall death total of 200,000

The problems that the states are going to have is that once people start seeing the number of cases and deaths go down, they will think everything is in the clear.  As difficult as it is now to keep people from congregating, it will be even more so then.

In Kentucky, they are having problems with some churches blatantly disobeying the order. 

I don;t understand what people don't get about this.  It's just not about them.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/11/health/us-coronavirus-updates-saturday/index.html

China reporting 1 death today.  

26 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

You are right. That's an important point. It's also just impossibly to know here, b/c of our lack of testing. I'm actually kind of hoping that many more of us have had it or have it and not fallen sick. That would make our death rate much lower.

 

I'm less concerned with the death rate itself and more concerned with the number of deaths, whether they are trending up or down, and deaths as a percentage of the population.  The actual death rate is simply going to be impossible to determine.  We simply are not going to know how many people had it because of the lack of testing and the fact that people without symptoms are simply not typically going to receive a test even though they may have had the disease. And, factor in people that may have actually had this in January and February and there is no way to come close to a true death rate.

In the end, let's say the U.S. ends up with about 60,000 deaths.  That's a big number and nothing to ignore.  But, instead of just blasting that number in a fear inspiring headline, would it really hurt the media to have a headline that says 'U.S. Percentage of Deaths Compares Favorably to Rest of World'.

I'm not going to hold my breath that we will see that. 

32 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

 We as a country failed to get a jump on this and we will be the country with the most cases and deaths when this is all over. This is disheartening to me as we have the resources for the opposite outcome.

 

On this point, while the U.S. may have the highest total number of deaths, we will not approach the deaths as a percentage of population that we are seeing in Europe.  Not even close.  Righ now, Spain's is close to 7 times that of the U.S., Italy 6 times, France 3 times, etc.

And then you factor in highly populated countries where the number of deaths being reported are most assuredly not accurate, like China and Russia, and it's unfair to compare the U.S. to them.

I'm not saying out response was what it should have been, but I think in the overall grand scheme of things, if you look beyond the raw numbers like number of cases and number of deaths, and I think the U.S. has done better than most other industrialized countries.

I think there are several things that are contributing to some of the trends we are seeing, but there is no single thing you can point to and say 'that's the anecdote'

• Climate - Contributes in that warm weather locales are still seeing cases, but are not seeing the overwhelming numbers seen elsewhere.
• General Age and Health of the Population - West Coast benefits from not only having a better climate, but having, generally, a younger and healthier population.  This category may also be a contributing factor in other hot spots such as Detroit, Chicago, and New Orleans.
• Population Density - NYC and New Jersey, with highly dense population centers are getting slammed, while the mountain and plains states, with a much more spread out population are getting spared.  Meanwhile, the high density locations in the South and West are benefiting from one or more of the other factors. 
• Social Distancing.  It's just easier to do in some places than ion others.